Fire Safety Law

There is some weird stuff being posted on here. Small kitchens & microwaves do not require fire blankets unless there is a small class F risk under 3 litres capacity/300mm diameter and if there is a general fire point (A rated plus CO2) adjacent near the kitchenette you don't need an extinguisher either.

The thermal shock aspect of CO2 on most electrical equipment is vastly exaggerated and for the small numbers of equipment types where this is the case deionised water mist is available (albeit from only one manufacturer). Powder is the extinguisher to avoid in most premises as that will damage electronics and obscures vision.

30 metres travel distance for general cover is that in the BS, with special hazard equipment adjacent to the risk (or immediately outside the risk room if it is small)

It is not law to have two A-rated extinguishers per floor etc that is referring to BS5306-8 the British Standard guidance. All the law requires is that where necessary the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment.
For small simple premises a single simple multi-purpose extinguisher is advised in the entry level guide, not the two A-rated extinguishers plus CO2 an extinguisher company would sell you.

The BS is a guide, but not mandatory and your requirements should be assessed by an independent competent person (not the one selling you it) and increasing numbers of users are currently getting these assessments done and reducing their number of extinguishers to a risk appropriate level.

Water, foam, wet chemical and powder units do have to undergo an extended service every 5 years (& if they have a plastic headcap/valve this must be replaced) and CO2 units do need to be overhauled every 10 years. Many extinguisher companies use these intervals to sell new equipment, but unless the extinguisher has no parts available, this it not necessary as the Extended service/overhaul is cheaper to you. If the company offers a service exchange (at less than new equipment cost) then this is acceptable.

Unfortunately large parts of the fire industry are unregulated so you get plenty of companies that do not service properly, others that replace equipment that is still OK, other still that install too much cover and other that don't have a clue about fire (like those who put ABC Powder or AFFF in a kitchen to cover a cooking oil Class F risk) - buyer beware!

Hi Neil, extinguishers are placed at a maximum travel distance of 60m (unless the FRA has stipulated less for some reason) - this way it is never more than 30m from a fire to an extinguisher (BS5306-8: 2000).

I think there should be a gentlemens' agreement to refer to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety Order) 2005 as the FSO. As Mike points out RRO could refer to other government legislation in other areas outside fire legislation.

Apologies, every 30 metres should be the travel limit me thinks!

Sean Sweet is absolutley right. But the amount and sum is the law yes, but the minimum, if you perceive a higher risk in your assessment then you decide more and of what kind. Having not seen your space it is difficult to answer the original question, a third party risk assessment should identify this, give the person the questions you want risk assessment to answer, legally obliged to give the previous risk assessment to them (it is a legal document attached to the running of the premises) but I can give my view from a distance if it helps.

In an office giving up to 16 cubic feet per person desk space (or 1800mm x 1800mm footprint) not including circulation, I would reccomend one water or AAAF extinguisher per 200 metre square. A co2 beside each one if electrical equipment in the area(computers). A fire blanket near small kithens/microwaves. One member of staff trained from every 50 employees to use them and some extra for holiday cover. Maybe suggest that at least one extinguisher available every 50 metres walk. Where you may perceive a higher risk of fire, then more frequently placed therefor increasing the number. Any chip fryers, cookers, then throw them out if you can or worry somewhat as to how you would deal with a full on kitchen fire and if that area is 'commercial' because quite expensive and quality installations will be necessary.

Also note that if an electrical item is unplugged it is no longer an electrical fire! A Fire Inspector told me once, that water dries out so equipment can be saved for repair, wheras CO2 and foam destroys so new equipment is definetley necessary. Of course if plugged in water is not a good mix.

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 for short often called RRO or the reform order or any human shortening that doesn't suit everyones taste. It has 5 parts and 5 Schedules to my knowledge and 24 Articles that are most required o be understood by the average FM or Fire Safety Manager. There is quite some detail in the schedules if you read them. A favourite URL of mine attached.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/

There are about 21 descriptive downloads of fire risk assessment advice and covers what needs to be observed for modt premises type. Of course there is BS and RICS advice too. But cost to buy and memberships may be prohibitive to small business.

Who decides is the responsible person for the premises or his designate fire safety responsible person. It wise to employ third party as it removes compromise by association/complacency/self belief...

The Local Fire Authority is there to fight fires, investigate and serve you prohibition notices shutting your bisuness down for not adequately complying. They are not an advisory service to risk assess for you. The owner/occupier is responsible to perform this yourself. Inviting your local inspector is letting him know you do not have control of your premises.

Hope all these posters have given you enough headache and of course the needed answer has come to you? Apologies we at times get haters posting too which must be a worry with negative or non productive posts.

Wrong............

With regard to fire fighting equipment, The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 DOES NOT state any such thing, and I've never heard of the Regulatory Reform Act 2005 either..............

Mike Kane

there is a simple answer to the question of required fire cover for commercial premises and is as follows. the Regulatory Reform Act 2005 states there MUST be a minimum of 2 class A extinguishers per floor, if the floor is larger than 200sq metres then the floor calculation of floor area x 0.065 / 13 gives you the required amount of class A cover as per BS 5306 part 8 (signposted within the Regulatory Reform Act 2005). I would not advise any one to ignore this advise because this is law and could result in insurance premiums being void and in the result of a fatality from the result of a fire , if it was proven that a lack of extinguisher cover existed the H&S manager and company directors could find them selves in the coroners court

Hi Mike, I should have been more specific, apologies - in the associated guides (section 8) to the RRO for the different types of premises there is the recommendation to use 3rd party accredited - which for fire extinguishers is BAFE SP101. The guide doesn't mention BAFE that was me being helpful.

Hello,

I missed that one...........

Where in the RRO does it recommend that you should choose a servicing company that is 3rd party accredited and where does the Order specify BAFE SP 101??

Regards

Mike Kane

Plus the RRO recommends that you choose a servicing company that is 3rd party accredited so in the case of fire extinguishers you are looking for BAFE SP101

To Graham Rowswell,

I am also based in Somerset. If you PM me I can provide you with a couple of local, reputable fire equipment servicing contacts. Choose carefully, there is a vast cost difference out there.

Dave

HI Graham - yes they are correct - they are the service schedules as laid down in BS5306-3 : 2009

Regards
Graham

Graham
I am a Site Manager at a school in Somerset. Our Fire & Rescue Service have stopped the servicing of fire extinguishers so i have to source this from a private company. One company that has given me a quote said the following;
Our water, foam and powder units will have to undergo an extended service every 5 years and our CO2 units need to be overhauled every 10 years.

Is this correct?

Various points raised, I'll take each in turn:

- Numbers of extinguishers: Determined by risk assessment, using the scales in BS5306-8 as a bench,ark guide. Be aware some special activities have their own scales, such as hazardous goods (ADR) & LPG use and storage

- Extinguisher service company: The anonymous poster running an extinguisher company does right to be anon as I would seriously question their competency if they had only heard of the public guides for extinguisher purposes, they should be aware and familiar with BS5306-3 for servicing and BS5306-8 for installation. Interestingly about 75% of extinguisher companies in one way or another do not service correctly or perform other sharp practice (but that's another discussion...)

- 'Disposable' or 'limited life' extinguishers: Usually BC or ABC powder extinguishers and constructed out of aerosol cans these types are free from the need for basic servicing as there are usually no checks that can be made above those by the user. The only caveat is that they must be replaced at the end of their warranty period. But not all extinguishers that are apparently 'disposable' in fact are - for example the Firemaster range of aerosol extinguishers are 5 year life service free, but the Guardian/Vanguard range of extinguishers are now refillable, gauged and require servicing to BS5306-8

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 requires all "Responsible Persons" to co-ordinate and co-operate in a multi-occupied building.

The Employer is the Responsible Person in the case of the "workplace" and the Owner (or their agent) is the Responsible Person in the case of the common areas.

Common systems such as fire alarms and emergency lighting will be the responsibility of the Owner, as will the provision of necessary evacuation exercises of the whole building (2 per year normally) and maintenance of structural fire protection.

Training of relevant persons in the workplace is the responsibility of the Employer, as is the provision of necessary fire-fighting equipment within the workplace. The level of provision will have been determined by each employer's Fire Risk Assessment, which should also take account of effects of an incident upon their neighbours.

As far as common areas is concerned, if the Owner's Fire Risk Assessment finds that Fire Fighting Equipment is required then it will be necessary for them to provide it.

In a multi-occupied building, it is always a good idea for the Owner to co-ordinate the fire risk assessments of all areas under the umbrella of a single inspection by a qualified Inspector, thereby ensuring a consistency of approach and an overall standard throughout the whole of their building.

Mike Kane
Fire UK Ltd
fireuk@msn.com

Tennants are responsible for the area of the building they occupy and landlords, or their agents, have responsibility for the common areas and the fire safety provisions that are common throughout the building. e.g. fire alarm. The tennants resposibility would be the staff evacuation, fire risk assessment etc. but it should take cognisance of and work with both other tennants and the landlord.

Very interesting, as a Facilities Manager of a multi occupancy premises, I understand that it is the Management company (ie us) who need to provide fire extinguishers in communal areas and maintain alarms around the building, and we do this.

However, should each individual tenant organisation be responsible for their own staff evacuation procedures/risk assessments and to provide the necessary fire wardens?

For Phil
This situation does sound a bit 'iffy'. I suggest you first check the guidance at

http://www.firesafe.org.uk/assets/docs/Portable%20Fire%20Exinguishers%20guide.pdf

Once you have looked at the relevant bits of that, be sure to check the manufacturer's recommendations for maintenance. These would usually be sufficient to meet all other needs. For a 'single use' unit it is difficul to see what maintenance other then a possible accurate weight check and a thorough visual inspection would be necessary. The visual inspection would need a degree of competence to check that nozzles etc were not blocked and to ensure all tamper seals were in place and undamaged. But this level of competence does not require major training to achieve. Any inspection would need to be recorded on the equipment and in a logbook used for the purpose.

To challenge the status of the advice received, you can ask for written details of the advice and if necessary speak to the head of your local fire safety office about the conflicting advice received.

It may be cheaper to replace the device yearly than to pay for an annual inspection but this really should be unnecessary with a bit of homework.

I've been told by local fire officials that I must have my single use disposable extinguisher inspected yearly although last year they told me a single use disposable would exempt me from the inspection, the package the unit came in states it doesn't need to be replaced for twelve years. I am suspicious because two differt officials tell me two different things and the only company that does inspections locally is owned by a fireman. Your thoughts please. Thanks, Phil.

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do gas staions have to have a glass breaking device for the fire extingushers

To answer your question it is worth considering the objective of ?adequate fire safety training?. Quite simply, this is, to ensure that all people know what to do in the event of fire in order to preserve their personal safety. This would in the majority of cases involve knowledge of evacuation procedures but may also involve some ?first-aid? fire fighting i.e. tackling small fires where safe to do so, (and where this does not jeopardise a speedy evacuation). All staff should be provided with enough training to enable them to play their part in safely executing emergency procedures. This is not the same for all since some staff, e.g. Fire Wardens or Fire Marshalls will have greater responsibilities than others. Such staff need to be selected on the basis of their ability to discharge their respective responsibilities. Training of necessity, will include some theoretical content such as ?what to do when the alarm sounds? or ?which fire exit should I head for?. However, to be adequate, it will also provide staff with opportunities to practice the procedures e.g. fire drills. Lack of practice may well lead to confusion in a real emergency, in turn causing delays in evacuation.

The question you raise concerning the presence of members of the public highlights the fact that in general it is not possible to train them in such procedures. Occupiers of premises thus have a duty of care to ensure that enough competent staff are in place to effect emergency procedures, thereby securing public safety. Therefore where members of the public are present it may be necessary to have persons trained to achieve evacuation as well as those who are trained in the use of fire extinguishers and who could thus, if appropriate, tackle small fires. Fire Wardens/Fire Marshalls may well carry out either role but it should be noted that the critical factors are that roles are clearly understood and that responsibilities are effectively executed. Establishing a clear safety plan and providing Fire Warden/Fire Marshall training to the right members of staff will overcome the risk you describe of ?someone paying insufficient attention and using the wrong sort of extinguisher?. In addition, such well trained Fire Wardens/Fire Marshalls can be instrumental in training the remaining members of staff in the emergency procedures.

Ultimately, the decisions you make about the numbers of staff deployed to each role will be based on your fire safety risk assessment (a responsibility that the occupier bears even if the premises are subject to a Fire Certificate). That risk assessment should be conducted by a competent person/s i.e. someone with sufficient knowledge and understanding of the workplace and risks presented, as well as available measures to control those risks. It should take into account those who would be put at risk in the event of fire, e.g. employees, visitors such as members of the public, disabled persons and should describe the measures necessary to control those risks. These measures will be the foundation of your safety plan. Whilst this may sound onerous, often it is a relatively straight forward exercise. HSE provides guidance in "Fire Safety : An Employer's Guide" available from HSE Books. Workplace Law Group can provide in-company Fire Warden/Fire Marshall training tailored to your specific needs.

Fire Risk Assessment In-house Training http://www.workplacelaw.net/eshop/product_info.php?product_id=234

Fire Warden In-house Training
http://www.workplacelaw.net/eshop/product_info.php?product_id=411

Workplace Law are holding a Fire Conference in October 2005. For further details, contact Tom Bett on 01223 431051 or tom.bett@workplacelaw.net

Can anyone tell me what "adequate fire safety training" means? In a public building, must all employees be trained in how to use all the different kinds of extinguisher, even if this means the risk that someone will pay insufficient attention and use the wrong sort? Or is it sufficient to train just the fire marshalls in this, and give everyone else fire drills? If anyone can advise, I'll be really grateful - thank you.

I have just been advised that my company needs to double the number of water fire extinguishers on the ground floor of a two storey building. Apparently a change in legislation and BS 5306 Part 8, Section 6 was quoted but I cannot find anything on the web.

Does anyone have any information on this and is there a government type site I can use to reference.

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