Refuge Points

It there any stipulation on whether refuge areas(temporary waiting spaces) must be provided on every floor of a building?For example if there were a ten storey building with two protected stairway enclosures would I expect to have refuge areas in both stair enclosures on every floor of the building with the exception of the ground which would have level or ramped access direct to a place of safety?

@Neil

We had a perfectly good refuge system in place perfectly placed for using the fire lifts.
Now I know it is the tenants problem to get their staff and visitors out in the event of fire and they have designated the refuges themselves.
This particular fire officer has also prevented the sub levels and staircases being used for invacuation purposes,the staff now have to lie on the floor or evacuate.
His colleagues are not happy and he will retire soon.

Barry

The following statement is an extract from the official guidance to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order. This is from the Offices and Shops guidance but the proncipals are the same across the board.

A refuge is a place of reasonable safety in
which disabled people can wait either for
an evacuation lift or for assistance up or
down stairs (see Figure 23). Disabled
people should not be left alone in a refuge
area whilst waiting for assistance with
evacuation from the building. Depending
on the design and fire resistance of other
elements, a refuge could be a lobby, corridor,
part of a public area or stairway, or an
open space such as a flat roof, balcony or
similar place which is sufficiently protected
(or remote) from any fire risk and provided
with its own means of escape and a means
of communication.
• Where refuges are provided, they should be
enclosed in a fire-resisting structure which
creates a protected escape route which
leads directly to a place of total safety and
should only be used in conjunction with
effective management rescue arrangements.
Your fire safety strategy should not rely on
the fire and rescue service rescuing people
waiting in these refuges.

Personally I think that the last sentence should have been right at the top of the guidance.

Following a conversation with our fire officer............

Its my job to ensure I maintain a safe means of exiting the building for my tenants.
Its the tenants job to get their staff out, disabled or otherwise.
Its the Fire Brigades job to put fires out.

We have refuges on the stairwells but these are not to deposit persons in and wait for the Brigade - you still have to then get these people off and away from the building.
The Brigade will of course assist in any rescue but they are saying they shouldn't have to especially in the case of persons placed in a refuge location - your plan may be to place them there temporarily in the first place but you then have to get them away from the building to your muster points.

Its always made me giggle the way the names for the 'service' and guys have changed over the years from Fire Brigade to Fire Service then Fire and Rescue Service (even if they tell you rescue isn't actually the job but something they will do if necessary) and to go from officer to now firefighter. I giggle when I think of a Police officer introducing him/herself as 'Crimefighter' Bloggs or whatever as they swing their cape over their shoulder and jump into their crime mobile........

Barry your fire officer has no right to prohibit the provision of refuge areas so long as the refuge area is intended to be used as a temporary waiting place to help you manage your evacuation, nor does he have any right to prevent you from using the firefighting lift to assist in evacuation of disabled occupants. You do have a duty to have proper measures in place for the safe evacuation of all occupants without relying on outside assistance e.g. you must not rely on the assistance of the fire service to carry out the evacuation of any persons. Their role is to carry out rescues.....completely different to assisting with evacuation.

Michael I am sorry but your advice is totally wrong. The purpose of refuge points and firefighting lifts is not to remove the need for the employer to make evacuation arrangements for vulnerable persons. Refuge points are designed to help manage the evacuation of disabled occupants but does not mean you leave them there to await the arrival of the fire service, and firefighting lifts are designed for the fire service to be able to get personnel and equipment to the scene of operations in a high rise building quickly without exhausting themselves climbing the stairs.
As has already been pointed out the fire service did not draw up BS9999. All British Standards are the result of discussions from all sorts of interested bodies until a agreement has been reached, in the case of BS9999 the fire service were just one of the interested bodies. BS's are also not mandatory, they are a model Standard but alternative solutions may also be acceptable.

There's a lot of assumption regarding evac chair placement and need. A vulnerable person or disabled person may not need an evac chair at all. When a risk assessment is conducted, some thought as to what wheelchair users are present, deaf or partially sighted employees or visitors may need a buddy, audible or visual or vibrating pager signal that a fire has been detected. Anyone can read the standards, but on top of that is the common sense of who is contained on that premises and the quirks of the premises, so don't just read the book and apply all recomendations. They may not be suitable. On a survey, I've just been informed I have too many emergency lighting units but that doesn't mean I need to remove them, I just have more than enough in all the right places. So don't change things by the book, think about if you perceive what you read to be suitable for your building and improve or align your controls to equal the guidance.

One other thought is that the fire authority services cannot be seen as the people that will collect your vulnerable people from the refuge point. The duty of care is on the enployer to have control measures to evacuate all it's employees and visitors. The fire authority is not responsible for evacuation. Having said that, they will risk their life to save people, but they shouldn't have to if your procedures are robust. I disagree with the new idea that fire vehicles carry difibrilators because I want the fire out, and believe the fire fighters have enougfh to do tackling a blaze. Paramedics have cycles, motorbikes and so forth these days so they should arrive timely enough when needed. They should carry difibs. It's an opinion, argue it but we are all entitled to have opinion.

Regarding a fire authority officer who does not allow a refuge in your building. There must be a valid explanation in writing I would moot. The relationship must be bad or the premises/controls not cohesive with a refuge. Ask the officer again for more detail, reset some balance and understanding. Hospitals do not evacuate patients often, they move to the next but one compartmented section and so on until it is such that safety is assured or evacuation is necessary, many do not leave the building. Having witnessd a drill in a private hospital though, I was shocked to find all staff performed full evacuation leaving the patients where they were. I was having phsio at the time and the practitioner just said to wait were I was as she knew it was a drill. Wrong on all levels. Anyway, I've rabbitted along for too long now and hope some food for thought is generated out of my opinion. At the end of the day, if you are the responsible person your opinion will be the deciding factor of your controls. What ever you read in a book, or on these forums, your interpretation of guidance and others opinion and your perception of your workplace ultimately gives you your conclusions. Have a great week one and all.

BS 9999 was not drawn up by the fire authorities all be it they had, amongst others, representation on the BSI committee and sub committees.
Fire lifts are suitable for use in evacuation of disabled persons unstil such times as the fire and rescue service arrives. Indeed current thinking is that it may, following an appropriate fire risk assessment, be appropriate to use 'normal' lifts in evacuation.

Thank you everybody with your great input but I got some sound info from Scotland gsi.gov and it states the following regarding the above ....

refuge points – now known as temporary waiting spaces.

The legislation does not refer directly to temporary waiting spaces but does require duty holders to make adequate provision for those people who may require assistance to evacuate in the event of a fire.

A temporary waiting space is the term used currently in Scottish building standards to denote a space provided to allow occupants with mobility or other impairments to wait temporarily, before completing their escape to a place of safety, whether under their own efforts or assisted by nominated members of staff. This temporary waiting space (or refuge point) must be separated by fire resisting construction and must have a direct and similarly protected route to a place of safety outside of the building.

For this reason temporary waiting spaces (refuge points) are generally found within protected zones which also house an escape stair. In Scotland such protected zones are required to have a fire resistance of one hour and this would be the normal expectation for the level of fire resistance provided to a temporary waiting space.

In specific circumstances, and on the basis of a duty holder’s proper assessment of the risk of harm to persons from fire, a lower standard of half an hour fire resistance might be acceptable to the enforcing authority.

There is nothing withn building regs that says you cannot have refuge points. Providing they are constructed to standads laid down by the regs and BS9999 (which coincidently was drawn up by fire authorities). Fire Fighting lifts are only for use by fire fighters in the event of an alarm of indicated fire, hence the use of refuges for fire fighters to evacuate vulnerable persons via these or by carrying. The whole idea is to remove the need for an employer to make evacuation arrangements for vulnerable persons.

Hello

Our local fire officer will not allow refuge points under any circumstance nor will he permit use of the fire lifts by any other person than the fire brigade once the fire alarm has sounded.

Regards


Barry

Andrew.

Fire refuge points must be constructed to a minimum of 30 minutes fire rating and be provided with a call point system of communication. This is to BS 9999. There is currently no legal requirement to provide an evac chair, and the method of evacuation should be addressed as part of the building users Fire Risk Assessment.

Mike W

Hi,
I understand the following info regarding Refuge Points within a building but could some one inform me of the legislation regarding how many minutes Fire protection a refuge point should give you. Thank you...

Refuges need not be positioned in storeys with a floor area of less than 280 square metres in buildings which have only basement, ground and first floors in one occupancy.
The minimum area of a refuge point should be 1400mm x 900mm.
A refuge point must be provided with an evacuation chair and identified people trained in its use., e.g. a Type A chair to BS 5568. Evacuation chairs are now available which can be operated safely by one person. An appropriate evacuation aid must be provided to assist evacuation from a lower/basement level