Anger at work can be a good thing, research suggests

To be fair to Michelle, she has explained that she is in the middle of an employment tribunal and that it may be colouring her views. While that may be stressful for all parties, there is no doubt it is horrendous for the claimant, especially if unrepresented. Stress can lead to all of the behaviours Mark describes; other might not feel it's an excuse but it is an explanation.

On the topic, an article elsewhere on this research states: "The study found that CPMs use anger in a deliberate fashion reflecting the hierarchy of the industry. Therefore, it is less likely to be used by CPMs when meeting with architects, the design team or line managers but more likely to be used when liaising with contractors and operatives."

Michelle's points about class/hierarchy have a validity in the context of the article. Having been immersed in the construction industry since childhood (though not for some time now), spending summers working on sites and having a family member who rose from chain-boy to project manager in 12 years, I've seen all types of management in that industry.

Yes, some managers/foremen/PMs &CMs with an aggressive, "shouty" style achieve things & get things done but in my experience were not as well-respected as they believed they were. And they rarely used it with "professionals"- they might still be a bit hostile or passive aggrssive but didn't shout. So there is a bit of a class element, even if classes are all somewhat jumbled these days.

The best PM I worked with was the opposite- spoke in a quiet low tone, only shouted if it was safety-critical in that moment and treated everyone from chain-boys to his contracts manager with the same respect. He wasn't po-faced, could be laddish with the rest of them (though didn't tolerate the ubiquitous page 3 calendars) and was really efficient. He got results and he was liked & respected.

In my view, shouting only has its place when life, health or safety is in immediate danger.

John- I have had to remonstrate with staff during H&S meetings and sometimes I use it as a method of producing a response. Just now and then it is necessary and people should get over it. Shouting is not bullying or humiliating far from it, it is a form of communication that is sometimes used for effect. It is about time we stopped being politically correct and started to use our common sense before it goes completely. Can we end this now?

Shouting and Bullying don't always correlate.

If someone during a building site safety meeting won't stop talking or won't do as they are constantly told as part of safety measures on site i don't see how a manager shouting at them can be seen to be bullying. As i've said, its not my style of management and I don't work in construction but how can I deny another manager that option if it works?
Q. Who are the biggest earners in the country?
A. Footballers.
Q. And who are one of the most successful teams in the world (loathe though i am to say it)?
A. Manchester United.
And finally what kind of a reputation has sir Alex Ferguson as a manager? Yes he shouts a hell of a lot, but in his arena it works.

Michelle, you clearly have an issue with being working class and being working class myself I take real personal offence at your comments:
"Stuck up, class-conscious, aspiring middle-class management need to realise that they themselves could not work manually for 8 or 9 hours. There's not a real days work in them, to be honest..."
You have clearly demonstrated you believe nothing of what you have written as your posts are as aggressive, derogatory and bullying as any verbal comments could ever be.

Hi John, apologies for the personal comments in my post, it isn't often that threads like this develop. In truth WLN is a great place to ask questions and debate serious matters, don't be put off by this one link.

Michelle,

Who - other than you - said anything about "shouting"? - and why specifically single out Architects - they are only doing a job - no more, no less than the rest of us. I can't do what they do - and they can't do what I do. There is no "social" hierarchy in this - forget about the 2 Ronnies and John Cleese sketch.

To answer your question - Architects certainly do get told they have it wrong when necessary - In H&S terms this happens more frequently than it should when they make site visits as they sometimes think they have access, without impunity, to any part of the project under construction.

Tantrum management? - Not on my watch - Robust control measures? Absolutely!

Peter Lander

Well said John

OMG I just joined here - thinking it would be professional and educational. Disappointed to see people snapping at each other and even bitching. Luckily in the midst of it, I can see some interesting points but it tedious to weed out the unnecessary stuff first. If someone has got something to say in here, make it relevant and worthwhile. Keep very personal stuff out of it.

So Peter do you shout at architects too?

Michelle,

Making comparisons with fictitious characters has no validity. He wasn't popular because that's how he was asked to be - I have choice and occasionally when appropriate, non-negotiable directions are required.

Peter

Peter,

Just for the record I have never failed an interview for any job I have applied for in many different departments for over 30 years' I am an asset to any office as evidenced by report comments over many years' and habitually do far more than what is expected.

Shouty managers are not part of any workplace I have ever inhabited. Actually, the only encounter I have had to date with bad management is the current tribunal one and that was not shouty more snidey, sly with tons of lies and deceit and corruption. Honesty is something you enjoy but sadly is not employed readily in most dog eat dog working environments.

Humour on building sites is second to none and if a hammer was falling on my head even I would welcome a shriek but that is not what the article was talking about it was the way different areas of people were treated.

You make your job seem like Auf Wiedersehen Pet but wasn't the site manager the German guy? If so he wasn't in the canteen for lunch, or the hut in their case, he was in an office and he was from memory not popular with the salt of the earth types.

Quote from the article 'proposals for swifter prosecutions after work deaths' currently under discussion on WLN:

'...currently, roughly only 30% of companies are convicted following the death of a construction worker. It cites HSE research findings that management failings contributed to 70% of fatal accidents'.

To all advocates of the tantrum-style of construction management - pick the bones out of that.

I can't see how Michelle ever gets a job - she must be choking to death during the interview process having to submit herself to cross-examination by one of those middle-class shouty manager types.

I've been a construction industry manager for over 40 years so I do know.

The construction industry is the last bastion where males can be blokes - we don't do PC, we don't do WL, and we don't do toleration.

Yep it's full of dynasores, troglodytes and cretins (says who?) - but they all have hearts of gold, look out for each other, form working teams off the bat and get the job done sometimes in less than ideal circumstances (that's too middle class - more like crap conditions)

It's not employment as you would know it - everybody's job has a price to it - and every job is subjected to rigorous H&S scrutiny all day every day. That's what you call stress - blokes get an earful and give an earful - it's the way it is and long may it continue. No one takes it home with them - you leave at the gate - tomorrows a new day.

It's the best industry you can work in 'cause you know where you stand - bad mouth the Boss and see what stick you'll get in the canteen lunchtime - love it!!

As long as you know your stuff the guys respect you, NOT because of your title - and I tell you this - they also understand the respect of "Please" and "Thank you" - and I do it ALL the time.

Way to go Michelle - you get what you give.

Stuart, you are my kind of manager! I am a senior nurse and have gone from cadet nurse through student nurse training, Staff nurse posts, junior and senior sisters posts, unit manager, clinical team leader and now lead OH specialist practitioner. I manage the OH service and I still remember promising myself that once I became a manager I would never, ever shout at anyone in the team. I have held this promise for nearly 40 years! I have always remembered the ones who "ruled by fear" and they only succeeded in creating an atmosphere of resentment but the good ones were my role models. However, I still remember when I have been shouted at because of something that could potentially have been life-threatening and I have to admit that I have never forgotten lessons learned that way. I believe I am a good, caring manager and as a result I get the best out of my team. As I firmly advocate, "there is no I in team"!

I wouldn't dream of 'banning' anyone from expressing a personal opinion, I am just asking you to take account of the fact that others have had different experiences which aren't as unfortunate as yours sound. I don't envy you going through a tribunal process either which I am sure is a grizzly thing looming constantly in the background.

In actuality, our opinions are not a million miles apart. If a poor manager constantly resorts to bullying, he should have a manager who notices and deals with him appropriately. If he is engaging with his team (particularly in the case of a construction site) in a more rumbustious and 'blokey' way than would be considered appropriate in other environments, I suspect it would generally be more effective and appreciated by the chaps engaged in the work (as a rough generalisation). Guidelines are good, but have to be applied to specific circumstance and environments to be worthwhile. If a ward sister shouted with nurses in that way, I am certain everyone would be horrified. If a nursing juniour was about to make a life of death mistake and needed to be shocked into realisation, I don't suppose anyone would consider somebody shouting at that moment, to be out of order. Circumstance. Situation. Environment.

I suspect the boffins who engaged in the initial study knew perfectly well that their premise could potentially stir-up a hornets' nest. It's an anti H&S dream headline. "Anger at work can be a good thing, research suggests"... it begs someone to wade-in in protest, and equally for others to pick it apart and take a measured stand-point.

Ideally no-one would ever feel the need to shout. Ideally, no-one would ever commit indiscretions which require a quick-fire lambasting. Unfortunately, human beings are a pretty random lot and we have to deal with situations, personalities and circumstances as they arise. That is why I always keep a relatively open mind and ask for as much clarification as is available.

Wish you well with your tribunal and hope you have the good fortune to find yourself working alongside a respectful, patient, encouraging and all-round good egg manager in the future.

S.

Stuart,

I am in the middle of a Tribunal and what I am encountering is without doubt colouring my view but sadly it is true and it is happening all live and well in 2011.

As for the building site shouting, my husband is a company director now but he suffered these jumped up types on building sites and he was an excellent worker, so yes you may be a nice likeable type of a chap but you are sadly not the norm, some folk should not be managers whatever their qualifications.

Both I and my husband have encountered these types in 30 years' of working and if you haven't then you are lucky.

As I have said I am finding now, during this Tribunal, that to save a bit of brass and wriggle out of their contracts bosses are not averse to skulduggery and this is in an exceptionally large employer (the Civil Service).

With or without my Tribunal experiences I would always show contempt for these type of bosses and especially when they oppress the working man, there is such a thing as dignity at work. We all need to work we don't go for the fun of it unless we are very lucky, so we do not have to be treated badly by anyone whilst we are there.

If you don't want to know what people with vast experience in the workplace think then ban me, there but for the grace of God and all that.

Michelle Wild.

This post has been removed at its author's request.

Michelle,

You seem to demonstrate a dislike of anyone in a managerial position. Your comments posted on these forums suggest that they are all worthless and rude and have contempt for their subordinates and treat them badly.

This whole discussion was supposed to be about the CPM role, building site safety and the various approaches to discipline and getting the job done whilst ensuring that workers aren't subjected to unsafe conditions. Some research has indicated that shouting is employed on some occasions, by some CPMs, to good effect. It may not be ideal, but in context is at least understandable to anyone who has ever worked on or near a building site. Personally I am neither shocked or horrified by this unsurprising 'revelation' and am absolutely certain that all methods in a manager's arsenal/skills-set should be considered and utilised where necessary. If a CPM stood-by and allowed one of his team to continue to play the fool and injure themselves or others, you would be first in line to upbraid him as ineffectual and useless.

This was a specific discussion topic and the context was absolutely relevant. It was not meant as a forum for you to grind your axe interminably about 'the bosses' and how much you dislike them. By all means you are entitled to your opinion, but you constantly wander off the topic and use your posts to vent your spleen which is not only unfortunate, but counter-productive.

"What a class-ridden vile country this is no wonder the kids are taking to the streets." - for goodness sake!

"Stuck up, class-conscious, aspiring middle-class management need to realise that they themselves could not work manually for 8 or 9 hours. There's not a real days work in them, to be honest, yet they, like the government, want people like these to work till they're 80." - Good grief where does all that bile come from? You sound like a 1970s union shop steward. Will you be calling us comrades and blowing a whistle next!?!?

In my 30 years employment, I have worked in menial tasks, junior roles, as supervisor, manager, contract manager, and head of department. In that time I have always tried to be fair-minded, reasonable, accommodating and supportive of my teams. I vet them, interview them and have a vested interest in them performing well, enjoying their work and knowing that they can come to me (both while they work with me and in some cases long after they have left to progress their careers). The vast majority of managerial staff aren't as your paint them in my experience... otherwise they would constantly be in front of disciplinary panels and on management technique training courses!

As regards the government, well I had better not express my personal feelings about the mob currently in power. I certainly didn't vote for them and have yet to see a coherent, sensible policy which will benefit society as a whole and in particular provide a safety net for those less fortunate (of which there are clearly a great many). I tell you this simply so that you may understand that putting on a suit does not turn you into a Conservative.

Take a deep breath Michelle - it's really not as bad as you are intimating. The vast majority of managers are not drawn from some 'ruling class'; they are not lazy good-for-nothings; they do not spend their entire time relishing the prospect of doling-out a whipping to their underlings. You have a very jaded view of management and it is almost entirely unjustified. I would like to think that I am not alone or remotely unusual in caring for my team, wanting them to succeed, develop, grow, prosper and in-turn, encourage, support and nuture their own appointees over the years to come. "We" has always seemed preferable and entirely sensible to me rather than "them and us".

I trust you will accept my observations in good faith. I write them because it pains me to feel that you hold such a tarnished perception of those who are charged with the responsibility of looking after their teams. Even if you have endured bad personal experiences, I would suggest that you have been unfortunate and I am confident most managers are considerably more accomplished and supportive than you are giving them credit for.

Stuart.

Mark,
My husband is a cabinet maker and has employed people in the past, I asked him what he thought, he agreed with me.

Obviously if safety is an issue then you sort it out very quickly by explaining the consequences rather like you do with children when telling them something for the first time.

People are not as stupid as the suits like to think and shouting is bullying especially when the same person would not dream of shouting at an architect or whatever it was the article stated.

It smacks of the class thing and it's about time that was done away with for good. If we have only one life why should some other person think they can make someone else's life miserable just because someone says they are a manager?

The last manager who shouted at me (even though he was not even my manager) over some confusion, where he was found to be in the wrong, was subject to a grievance that I cited against him.

Under our company policy

i) If you are violent, threaten violence or entice others to be violent, or if you behave in an intimidating manner.
ii) If you are obscene or abusive.

Especially as he had me cornered and was standing toe to toe.

He along with other members of the management team were going to be put on special courses in dealing with conflict approx. two years ago and to my knowledge that has not taken place.

He blamed the company for putting him in a stressful position and rather than deal with that he pushed it down to his staff. Unfortunately for him I am far more aware of his boundaries; however I know people have resigned from there position due to his bullying and aggressive management style. Again this is a manual manufacturing based company where the staff have little more than secondary school based education.

Sorry, but if safety is put at risk (as cited) the manager must get it sorted. If he has to express annoyance and frustration at dangerous practices by shouting to get them remedied he should. I don't agree with you Michelle in that 'a manager who has to shout can't manage'. Do you work in construction? I don't and have never shouted at any of my teams in 10 yeras as a manager but id stake a large wager on it that a very different and particular style of management is required in the contruction industry, especially at site level.
I believe the number of recorded accidents at work has increased slightly on last years figures. Lets not forget where the majority of workplace accidents take place - in the construction industry.

I suspect the core sample isn't large or diverse enough to extrapolate too many conclusions.

However some of the comments on here seem to be made by people who forget that the sample was specific to the Construction industry and the CPM role. CPMs are definitely not HR managers and are under massive pressure to ensure their (sometimes playful and indisciplined) teams get the job done. Please don't overlook the observation which is made half-way through the article: "However, CPMs recognised that if this approach was used too often it would not have the desired impact. Issues which provoked an angry outburst tended to relate to breaches in health and safety and questions about honesty and integrity."

It's a bit like needing a regimental sergeant major on a parade ground... without a bit of shouting when it is called-for, the whole thing runs the risk of becoming a shambles, and given the environment, a very dangerous shambles.

Only the type mentioned in my post.
The clever ones have long since figured how it works.

do construction site managers sit in an office all day 'pushing a pen'? - just asking, i have no idea.

Unless the person being shouted at was on the brink of doing something dangerous, I can see no justification in any such wholly unprofessional conduct from a supposed superior toward their staff, in any place of work.
Having worked in a previous incarnation as a steel fixer I can say that only the most inadequate and immature of site managers would ever attempt this vain method of motivation, demonstrating nothing more than the fact that they have neither control over their workforce nor the necessary respect.
If there are any aspiring project managers out there thinking of taking their lead from this article and adopting this 'technique'; do you honestly believe that you can intimidate that 18 stone bricklayer, and if so do you really think that he or any of his contempoaries will be inspired to help you in your job when they see you stamp your feet? Assume the position and prepare to receive that size 10 steely, because that's where violent talk leads.

I can't help thinking that eventually they would also likely get a steel tipped boot up the botty if the shouting was thought to be unwarranted and regular. Shouting only really gets peoples backs up, it is not conducive to a happy work place and certainly does not get the job done quicker.

With respect, Martin, I'd refer you to the second sentence of Michelle's post on 16/8 at 8.02pm.