Older staff resented at work

Or rather 'Don't' get yourself upset.

I blame spell checker!

Firstly, my previous post wasn't in response to anyone in particular so please get yourself upset or offended by my opinion. Which by the way is exactly that...opinion. As are all of your thoughts and beliefs. To reiterate. If you read my post you will notice I didn't "blame all parents" but I do firmly believe that in a world where our education system is failing our children, we could sit and blame the teachers, government etc etc or we could actually take responsibility and guide them ourselves. I do COMPLETELY understand there is no definitive book on good parentage and that there are exceptions to the rule so I am not knocking anyone’s ability at being parents. I know how hard it can be!!

For the record, I was referring to employment experience, neither you nor anyone else here has a single iota of insight into another persons "life experience". I would suggest keeping comments more professional to save causing unwarrented offence. I enjoy heated debates but petty shots just ruin the intellectual argument and turn it into an episode of Hollyoaks. *Shudder*

Besides, not wanting to sound like I am stuck in the 60s but VALUABLE experience is subjective. I have been fortunate (yes I know luck is just as important as tenancity) to have had some fantastic mentors. Likewise I have also found myself stuck with the kind of people the simply begrudge imparting knowledge to their younger colleagues as they see them as inferior or fear that they may be replaced or outshone.

I completely agree with Richard. I might not have worded it quite so well or tactfully but that is what experience is for ;-)
It is great to hear you have approached it in such a positive way. I would hate to learn that such valuable knowledge and experience is lost simply because the opportunity to impart it wasn't there.
I am trying to implement a similar mentorship programme in my place of work for that exact reason. It also supplies the additional benefit of developing relationships between people that may not otherwise have entertained the idea.

Looking forward to hearing the Blaire, Thatcher responses!

Are 'Blairs Children' worse than 'Thatchers Children'? Discuss. Personally I think the self absorption and focus of the former, at the expense of anything with 'social' in the title (such as provision, care, conscience etc) is a natural consequence of the latter. We (that is those of us in our late 40's and early 50's) created the monster and rode its back through the yuppie years. Even those of us who opposed neo liberalism must carry some blame in that we didnt stop the hegemony of the Chicago school of economics being established, or more importantly didnt provide sufficiently strong arguments for alternatives.
As time goes by, a hilltop compound in Montana (Owl Farm anyone?) is becoming increasingly attractive.

Interesting and sometimes heated debate. As a 50 something businessman who has worked 60 hours per week consistently in my life I have a view from both sides of the fence. You cannot buy or teach experience and older employees are worth their weight in gold if they are good employees. Similarly those just staring out need to be nurtured and persuaded to teach us old dogs new tricks (social media being a prime example). I have recently employed a valuable sub contractor who no longer wishes to run his own business. His role is to recruit, manage and train a new team of people in his image so that when he eventually hangs up his tools I have received the benefit of his 40 years experience instilled into new young blood. My older employees each have a younger employee allocated to them for mentoring. Some reduced output initially but great results eventually

richard betts - ecex

I am surprised that someone with seven children has time to engage with this thread let alone contribute in the workplace. I bow to far superior knowledge of child-rearing. I could neither afford nor want so many additions to my family. However, I personally have found that once a child reaches around 8 years' traits picked up at school appear to hold more bearing than what parents have instilled or continue to instill, this may be fleeting but it is a fact. These are the people who children must compete and eventually work with so I suppose it is all training for life but how other children behave does rub off and standards in the classroom have definitely changed for the worse. My child was not in the state school system and so has been cushioned from the erosion in our state schools but it is a fact that teachers no longer command the respect that they did in the 60's or 70's and educational standards have been eroded because of that. The standard of English in missives I receive daily is evidence of this and the delay in responding to letters, if indeed a reply is ever received at all, shows that the changes that have occurred are not good. Computer skills would I would have thought ensured that work is dealt with in a more timely manner but it has not and talking to officers' bears no fruit in my experience. The customer is always right has gone forever and been replaced by a general don't care attitude towards work and the world owes me a living mentality. Perhaps the young should concentrate on doing a good job in whichever post they hold first instead of eyeing the greasy pole continually, they need to prove that they have the necessary attributes for loftier positions it is not an automatic right. We all started in low paid jobs and worked our way up learning a lot on the way. I'm sure we all think we worked "VERY" hard but the fact of the matter is 8 years' of employment does not actually constitute much life or work experience and if you are to be any kind of manager you will find that experience can not be taught it is gained as we progress through life. The buck stops here mentality shows how naive your concept of child-rearing is, nurture not nature is true to a certain extent but a child also has to be free to suck it and see if it is not to become a carbon copy of its parents. Human evolution would cease if we all remained within the parameters of our parents ideaology. Children grow up to be themselves ultimately and bring to the world many things but simply put what a younger person may think is a most fantastic idea may well be something that has already been tried before and failed miserably because of certain learned facts there is no substitute for acquired knowledge. If standards in our schools are allowed to fail continually, there are more children now who cannot read and write now then there were in the 40's, then the fabric of society will change irrecoverably. If a child cannot comply with instruction in school then a manager in the workplace will fair no better. No matter how good a parent you are or have been will be of no consequence if how we treat each other on a daily basis both in the workplace and without is eroded any further. Courtesy is lacking in how we treat each other, we all need to eat and so need to work, if they stopped paying us none of us would go, so unless we can all get along and use each others strengths to teach each other then there will be no equilibrium and certainly no world peace. No one person knows everything we are learning till the day we die, (perhaps even after that,) and that old adage treat everyone as you would wish to be treated is still very good advice. Yes there are horrible people but no-one has to be one of them how you deal with advesity makes you what you are.

I did clearly state there are some exceptional young people out there who work hard and are respectful. But two points, It's too easy to blame all parents, some of whom I personally know to to have 'nurtured' but have lost their children to society and their desire for cultivated celebrity status or material worth. The gossip media implies that if you're not a celebrity or rich you're not successful.

Secondly, to Chris, now who's making ageist assumptions? What makes you think i'm not aged between 18 and 24? Admittedly my photo is blurred to hide a few of my wrinkles but seriously I am not echoing anything said of my youth, i dont consider myself angelic and got up to some right mischief at that age but I clearly remember a different culture, attitude and general better state of behaviour from my generation and that was through the Thatcher years when allegedly material worth was the be all and end all.

I've interviewed many young school leavers and graduates and while there is some real talent out there i'm sorry to say far too many don't have a clue about the real world, there are a good deal too many daddy's little princesses or mummy's pampered princes.

This is quite simple; respect is an earned privilege and not a prerequisite simply because a person has managed to avoid young death to reach old age. I think a large portion of resentment results from older people expecting to jump ahead of younger people in an organisation regardless of actual experience racked up.
Likewise, A LOT of Uni leavers believe that they will get high level positions without any practical application of their 'skills' which simply highlights the lack of in-to-work support provided by universities.

Essentially though the buck stops with the parents. I'm sorry to say it but the majority of what makes up a child’s personality is nurture not nature. Rather than blaming society for disrespectful children it might be worth looking closer to home.
For what it's worth, as a 23 year old that has been in work since 16 years of age. The majority of the time the direction of age discrimination certainly does not flow upwards! I have worked VERY hard to get to the position I am in and still I am paid a large amount less than an older person with the same level experience in my subject matter. This is a fact that all young people will have to get used to when joining the rat race. Fortunately for the younger masses in times of economic collapse organisations cannot afford to spend lavish amounts of money and so we get the opportunity to fill the new low paid roles in which we can work upwards....in other more prosperous periods, 9 times out of 10, an organisation will recruit someone with more years experience. Quantity over quality.

Michelle... with respect I have a daughter of 2 years; one of four years; two sons, one of eight and one of eleven; an older seventeen year old daughter and a twenty four year old by a previous marriage.

My experience of young people and raising them is not, as you suggest, limited to the youngest of the young. I am in a position, however, to judge how the very young people see the world that is providing them with examples of how to behave.

Children get much of their behaioral traits from their parents; however they are greatly influenced by the way that people treat them too. If old people refuse to show the slightest regard to young people then resentment will follow. This will be as true in the workplace with older teens as it is anywhere else in society.

As for not knowing how my son will mature... I can look on my older children with pride knowing that nine times out of ten they will treat an older person with much more respect and courtesy than they will ever receive.

Chris, With respect you have "young" children and you really do not yet know how they will mature. I have a 19-years-old and he certainly does not resemble the 8-years-old who held my hand tightly not so very long ago. Yes I agree all old peole do not pass around the Werthingtons originals either. All I can say is wait and see how your own children develop, the world is not the same and the young adults do need to have more about them than we ever did in this brave new world. But the confidence and importance which we engender in our youth can become arrogance when placed in a position of power too young. We were talking of young people in the workplace not children and I stand by what I said. I have worked alongside and under graduates and frankly I do prefer to have a more mature manager, (not middle management perhaps), but this is not that I have personally suffered, in fact the worst boss i ever had was a 50 plus spinster, it is just what I have heard, seen and generally observed in the workplace and out of it.

If anything, this thread has demonstrated for me the absolute need for the age provisions of the Equality Act! Let's remember it's there to proect people of any age. I'm sure we've all experienced unpleasant & arrogant people of all ages.
My 92 year old grandad is often heard to comment, "Good old days? No such thing! Too many old folk (!) just don't move with the times & too many young folk don't like to think we might know more than them."
Let's stop generalising- there might be truths in all of what has been said above but that doesn't make it THE truth.

Michelle, I am truly sorry that your experience of the younger generation is that you have been exposed only to the darker or nastier examples. I must point out, however, that for every young person who complains at the faults of the old... there is an older person doing exactly the same thing about the young. Worse still... once they get to a certain age older people even believe that they no longer have to be courteous or considerate in their dealings with other people. I have young children who are routinely pushed out of the way in the supermaket because the selfish old people simply can't slow down for a minute... even worse when my kids step aside or move to make an older person's life easier do they say "thank you"? No they do not. Older people are largely rude, obnoxious and seem top think they can do every job in the world better than anyone else... even when they do not possess the mental faculties, wit or ability to do so.

The younger generation are no less respectful today than they were twenty years ago. The simple truth is that today's 60 year olds hate to admit that they were once 20 and just as fired up, arrogant, occasionally rude perhaps as any of the younger generation are these days.

Those who shout about how good the old days were and how everyone respected their elders are simply not telling the truth.

There are just as many good, well qualified, respecful and respectable young people about as there have always been. In many cases it is a shame the older people can not follow the wonderful example they are set by youngsters.

When I was 18 we had respect for older people in general and that is what is lacking in the young of today full stop. They are so full of the youthful me me me that they fail to see that there are other people on the planet. Life skills and dealing with people are not the forte of the young today who usually I have found still have the selfish I am the centre of the world attitude that they may or may not grow out of. Yes I love their enthusiasm and their naivete but their killer instinct and their extreme confidence is frankly horrible.

While there may well be 'Arrogant Little Upstarts' who expect to 'walk into their preffered role as director of BP' there are also quite a few older employees out there who assume that they should be given a position purely based on longevity at a company or seniority of age and not necessarily their suitability to do the job.

I think that competition in the workplace is a healthy practise. The only people who should be worried by the contents of this article are those who are concerned that they cannot work to the same level as the younger generation and so their 'right' to a promotion or a job is at risk!

Let's not forget. This article is about the views and opinions of younger people. These are not the views of employers.

In my opinion success in a role will depend on a combination of drive, enthusiasm and skill level (sometime, but not always, linked to experience). Sometimes employers will be happy to take on someone who is lacking in one area but heavy in the others. If you are lacking in all three of these areas then you have no-one else to blame but yourself.

I know this might not be a popular view but perhaps there is a different way to look at this issue. Of course older people should be valued in business, and it is completely insane that their expertise in certain fields is not rated at its true worth. However, is it not also true that businesses are working with ever deacreasing resources, and it is also true that technology and working practices are ever evolving.

If this can be taken as being broadly the case; then it may be that there are occaions when it is felt that a younger mind, perhaps one that is more open to technological advances, has more potential to benefit the business than one that might be more resistant to such change.

I am not suggesting that all older people are IT illiterate, far from it. However where personnel may need retraining in order to keep up with such changes, the return on investment of such training could be seen to be greater when applied to a younger person with a longer working life in front of them than their older counterpart who may be approaching retirement in any case.

The real problem, in my opinion, is that legislation has gone so far toward political correctness that even those industries for whom employees with greater experience would be of benefit can face problems trying to recruit the right people.

My Father in Law is a retired police officer. He worked for a long time following his retirement from the job administrating a driving test center. The skills that he gained as a policeman in dealing with the public, in circumstances that could sometimes be volatile as you might imagine, stood him in very good stead in his new post. However the company is not permitted to state that such a position would be suitable for such a candidate since this would be ageist.

The shape and nature of the modern workplace is no longer as it was. In days gone by it was the experience of the job that have a candidate for promotion the knowledge that he or she might need in order to fulfil a new position. Today it is not so. The experiences gained as a youngster in a business are likely to have much less relevance to the nature of the higher position once technology, and new legislation have all been taken into account.

Our younger generation; the people who will take our country and our businesses forward and who learn much of the essential basics of their trade through their studies should not be derided for striving to be the best that they can be.

As a final observation; reading Mark's comments I wonder whether he is, in fact, echoing the very comments that might havebeen made when he was himself 18-24

Arrogant little upstarts, couldn't agree more with everyone here. Sadly it does highlight the massive perception gap between the 18 - 24 year olds, (sixth form leavers and graduates) and the real world. The youth of today expect everything to come to them, just because they spend 3 years at University scraping a 2:2 or a third in "shoe design in the 1920's" they think they've done enough to write off anyone over 60 and walk into their preferred role as director of BP. There are exceptions and some great young people out there who respect older workers, are prepared to start at the bottom and work hard to gain knowledge and experience but sadly they are a small minority.
We have lazy kids its as simple as that.

Barry - You had my thought! I was about to add that. If these youngster are too quick to chuck all the oldies out have they thought who will be supporting them for the next?? years as for most the most important pension years are those in the years just before retirement. If they are not working they wont be able to afford to make them! With the cost of living going up as it is and everyone living longer, these youngsters are going to be saddled with paying out. Perhaps that might wake them up to being a bit more friendly to the older generation!!

Carole

We could all of course go onto benefiets or back to uni as mature students they can pay for us then.

Barry L

Most 18 - 24 year olds would view anyone over 40 "old"!! Just like they expect to walk into good paying jobs straight out of uni and view anyone with intelligence as a threat to them!

Quite how these arrogant, want it all now people think that the "older" staff that they want sacked are supposed to live I am not sure, especially as most of them have parents who have probably struggled to put them in the position they are in today and those parents had no idea that finances which they planned and saved for were going to be stretched to quite what they have or that the jobs they thought were for life were not going to be there thanks to the "young things" in the city! Thats gratitude for you.

Isn't it time that they tried to learn a little from that generation before the countless many skills they possess are gone for good instead of viewing them as a constant threat and a meaningless irrelevance which should skulk away to their bowls, bridge and mobility chairs?

I would love to agree, but as an "older person" but not yet at retirement age, I can't afford NOT to work, especially now as the government has increased the retirement age.
Lots of young Britians wouldn't or couldn't do the type of jobs being offered to the older workforce as they have no social skills and certainly no pride in anything. I seem to be "generalising " but then again this research is insulting giving the option to say that one in 20 people between the ages of 18 & 24 claim the older person should be paid less because they work at a slower pace.

Are we in danger of becoming like other contries where if you can afford to retire you do, if you can not afford to, you work till you are too infirm.

There are people who think that older people working take jobs from the young, but that is only because the young think that they can be directors in weeks rather than working their way through a career to get there

Cynicism is the new realism?

Let's face it everyone is living longer the strain on the UK is reaching bursting point, the cost of living is going up, pensions are dwindling....older people are struggling and need to be working to supplement their insufficient pensions.
Colleagues I have lost through 'enforced 'retirement recently have without exception been sad losses to our organisation. In our field the skills and experience lost is irreplaceable.

It's a sign of the times!