Fire Training

Darren,
The RRO, as Perry refers to above, requres that sufficinet equipment be provided where necessary. Competent persons should be nominated and provided with sufficient training, knowledge and experience to implement the fire precautions deemed as necessary.
This is all very wooly and open to interpretation making it difficult to prescribe extinguishers & training for every eventuality.
The document which should tell your client what equipment is needed, whether they require training and of what depth is their fire risk assessment.
This can leave companies with the impression that they can conduct a risk assessment themselves, stating 'we're low risk and need no extinguishers' and they're able to carry on without them.
That's all well and good until a fire occurs and they have to stand up in court an defend their risk assessment. The defense 'we didn't want fire extingusihers because the servicing is too expensive' is unlikely to be looked upon favourably by a court following a serious incident.
If fire extinguishers are provided, staff should recieve training. If a fire occurs they may attempt to use the precautions provided. Should an incorrect extinguisher be used, for example a water based unit on electrics, further risk and injuries could occur.
Personally I prefer the practical use of a fire extinguishers to video only training sessions as I feel it helps people to better understand how the units operate and makes the training more memorable.
As I say, the final decision really is down to the fire risk assessment, if the assessment doesn't determine the training requirements perhaps the 'competent person' who conducted it would should be contacted to see their view.

The legislation is the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.

Article 21.

I have seen offices where fire blankets have been recommended (SOLD) on such pretexts (they were also sold a ridiculous number of powder extinguishers!). At one building large fire blankets were on each stair landing. The office manager had been told that they could be used to wrap and roll a person on fire or to use as a screen to escape past a burniing door opening!
Fortunately such poor sales are rare.
Any regular or common office property or section will need only water and CO2 extinguishers.
Darren needs an independent assessment by a reputable consultant or third party registered supplier.
As we can all see from the threads it can be a confusing minefield not helped in some areas by differing attitudes or opinions of Fire Authorities.
There are so many variables. There is no 'one size fits all'
Training, knowledge and understanding, however, is key to the effectiveness of all provisions and whatever means are employed to impart such knowledge it must be tested.

Darren,

The provision of extinguishers has to be decided by the owner/occupier and not by the customer - why are they advising this and will they take the responsibility if you are prosecuted?
I also note that they are suggesting that you do need extinguishers except in high risk areas - have they told you where these high risk areas are?
You would also prefer to supply numerous fire bankets because they do not need such stringent servicing and are cheaper to buy and replace - you haven't indicated what your business is and at the moment I'm at a loss to think of a business that would fit this scenario.
Your original question was about fire training and even if you provided extinguishers only in high risk areas and numerous fire blankets you would still have to think about the training issue and I think that you will also need to consider your responsibilities in a little more depth.

Regards Alan

Darren
As someone who works for a company that sells and services fire extinguishers I'd say that what you should do is get a BAFE registered fre extinguisher supplier/installer company in to quote you for what you are required to have by British Standard. What does your company produce/supply and use in doing so?

I would think from an insurance and Risk Assesment point of view you should have as a minimum British Standard or it could be argued by an insurance company that you were not taking adequate precautions.

Regards
Matthew

David,
I think that the reasons that you have given for not carrying out practical training need a little more clarification:

High staff turnover - this can also be a reason why you have to carry out more rather than less practical training and depends on the risk.
Low risk - just because something is low risk doesn't mean that you need not carry out practical training - there may be other reasons such as high life safety or business continuity that decides this factor.
Few staff - again you may have few staff but they may be in part of a building which is high risk.

You are right about the degree of training and this is what Darren has to decide but I think it important to understand that it is not just a simple it's low risk and we only have a few staff that don't stay very long as a reason not to carry out fire training.

Regards Alan

Thanks for all the comments so far on this issue, bear in mind I agree with what has been said, but the customer has advised (and bear in mind they have an office environment) we really dont need extinguishers, or only at the greater risk areas, we would prefer numerous fire blankets for putting out fires which do not need such stringent servicing and are cheaper to buy and replace.

When talking about office fires what would the advice be to this, they are happy to have Co2 extinguishers for electrical fires.

I think darren's key point is not whether or not ext. training is required but to what degree. The answer darren is the same as for so much of this legislation: the level of training should be "suitable and sufficient". It is for you to judge whether to send staff on expensive practical training or simply show a video. Whatever you decide you should record your reasons and test your assessment by occasional questions to staff.
High staff turn over for example or low risk and few staff would render practcal training inappropriate.
Good luck

Apart from the requirements stated above by Alan and Mike, Health and Safety legislation requires that staff are trained in the use of all equipment provided in the workplace

Regards,

George

Hello Darren,

The Regulations state that... "in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that-"

"the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire fighting equipment....."

and "The responsible person must, where necessary -"

"take measures for fighting fire in the premises..." and "nominate competent persons to implement those measures...."

So, if a fire risk assessment indicates that fire fighting equipment is required within a premises, it is clear that there is no grey area regarding this and it neccessarily follows that once a premises is equipped, provision must be made to nominate and train specific persons to use that equipment.

Best wishes

Mike Kane

Darren,
The guidance will say "Firefighting equipment can reduce the risk of a small fire eg a fire in a waste bin, developing into a large one. The safe use of an appropriate fire extinguisher to control a fire in its early stages can also significantly reduce the risk to other people in the premises by allowing persons to assist others who are at risk.
People with no training should not be expected to attempt to extinguish a fire. However, all staff should be familiar with the location and basic operating procedures of the equipment provided, in case they need to use it."

I think that this answers your question but it must be seen as part of your overall fire stratagy and you need to think - what would happen if my premises burnt to the ground because no one put out the waste bin fire or more seriously what if someone lost their life because of it?

Your Fire Risk Assessment should address this area of concern and it's interesting that you were asked this question by a customer - why do you think that you were asked this question - could it be that the customer is trying to establish how seriously you take the subject? It's certainly a question I ask companies when I am evaluating suppliers/contractors for my clients. You indicate that you "cannot see the need to be trained on the use of extinguishers" but that you acknowledge the need for "periodic training on adequate safety" so why would you treat fire extinguisher training any differently? How do you feel about first aid training - would you also class this the same as fire extinguishers?

What you decide to do and how you decide to do it is down to you but not carrying out this important role carries its own risk and you need to think about how you might answer an enquiry if someone lost their life because no one was trained to extinguish the fire in the waste bin that resulted in a tragedy.

I hope this helps but if not please feel free to get in touch.

Regards Alan

I have been asked by a customer about fire training In relation to training staff on basic fire training I am looking in the regulations whether it confirms that staff should:

Receive training in the use of extinguishers, I know they need training when they join a company and then periodic training on adequate safety training to safeguard himself and others but cannot see that they need to be trained on the use of extinguishers, could this training just ensure that they are trained in safe evacuation?

Also I cannot see anywhere that advises if they do need training on the use of extinguishers then this must be using extinguishers in a practical setting, ie letting them off, or whether this could just be carried out in a classroom setting with visual aids, videos etc?

I am not saying that it is not good practice, I am sure it is, but whether there is specific legislation to say it must be done this way?