fire update

Neil,
In my experience trying to make people aware of fire safety procedures when they enter a building very rarely work except in a few instances such as:

1. When someone enters a building and they are handed a copy of the procedures to read before entering the building and even here whilst you are asking someone to read it you can't msake them understand it.

2. When someone is asked to sign to confirm that they have read and understood the procedures.

Clearly, these procedures would not be well received by someone entering a golf club for a function and if it caused delays it would be even more unpopular. Obviously, Fire Action Notices and procedures on the back of a building pass or ticket demonstrate a positive attitude but I'm not convinced that trying to make people aware of a fire procedure when they enter a building is realistic proposal for a social function.

What may be more acceptable is at the beginning of a function someone just pointing out to all of those present what the procedure is and where the fire exits are but here again it would not be practicable in some situations.

REgards Alan

Unfortunately, neither the Health & Safety at Work 1974 or the Regulatory Reform (Fire safety) Order 2005 goes into great detail regarding fire training.

An organisation might well operate a policy where they advise against anyone tackling a fire ... the "GET OUT, STAY OUT" stance however, you can't beat "hands on" experience.

A 30 minute DVD entitled STOP IT BURNING might prove just as well to one organisation, but not to another and having delivered Annual fire training on a weekly basis for the past 23 years, standards in training (and their contents) continue to improve as major companies invest in "their people".

Going into a little more detail;

What is the role of a fire warden?

A fire warden will effectively have two roles: a day-to-day role and one for when the fire alarm sounds.

Day-to-day role:

• To keep an eye on the general fire safety of the area, building or floor the warden has been allocated.

• Keep an eye on corridors and walkways to ensure combustible materials are not stored there.

• Monitor escape routes to see they are kept free of obstructions.

• Check that fire doors are not tied, propped or wedged open where they should not be.

• To check that final exit doors are not obstructed.

• To check that extinguishers are where they should be and no obvious misuse or defect has occurred.

• During scheduled fire alarm tests over a period of weeks or months, check that the alarm can be heard in all rooms and all parts of their allocated area.

• Possibly assist with the creation of personal emergency evacuation plans (PEEPs) if requested by their manager or Departmental Head.

• Possibly assist with fire risk assessments (FRA) if requested by the DSA or whoever carries out the FRA.

This may seem like a lot of extra work but in reality it can be done as part of the “day job” just by being a little more observant. Any problems or defects need to be reported to the appropriate person.

Role when the fire alarm sounds:

• Put on the yellow high-visibility vest or armband.

• Sweep through their allocated area, turning off equipment and closing doors/windows in passing but not delaying their own escape unduly, while encouraging people to leave via the nearest fire escape route. The fire warden should normally be the last person off their floor.

• Checking all accessible rooms including toilets and offices to make sure people are beginning their evacuation.

• Checking any refuge in their area in case someone is waiting for assistance to evacuate.

• Reporting to the person in charge of the evacuation, at the assembly area or just outside the building, to advise their area is clear (or to report anyone who can’t or won’t leave the building).

• To assist the officer in charge with crowd control, verbally encouraging people towards the assembly area.

• To take part in any post-alarm de-briefing to identify any shortcomings in the evacuation procedures.

Departments may want their fire wardens to do other things in addition to the roles outlined above.

What extra responsibilities does a fire warden have?

From the actions listed above, a fire warden will not take on any additional responsibility for fire safety. That remains with the Departmental Manager / Head of Department.

Who is responsible for providing fire wardens?

The Head of Department is responsible for fire safety. Day-to-day activities and the practical actions of fire safety may be delegated to a nominated person. If a fire warden permanently leaves the building, a replacement should be found and trained.

How many fire wardens are needed in a building?

Ideally there should be sufficient wardens to cover all areas of a building. However, this is complicated by the size of a building and the complexity of its layout, plus the nature of peoples’ work as it often takes them out of their own building. Add to this scheduled holiday and other absences and it becomes apparent quite a few wardens could be needed. As a rule of thumb, if a floor or area takes longer than three minutes to sweep, there needs to be more fire wardens.

Here are two examples;

• A small building with a single staircase and offices etc off may only need one fire warden if that warden is stationed on the top floor and rarely leaves the building. A deputy is needed to cover for absences. Ensuring all staff know their role and responsibilities in a fire alarm will make the warden’s role less onerous.

• A large building with lots of rooms and complicated escape routes may need to have each floor divided into sweep areas and a fire warden, plus deputy, provided for each sweep area. This can only work where there are sufficient staff in the building so again, all occupants need to know their roles and responsibilities with respect to fire alarm procedures.

What if there are not enough people to act as fire wardens?

Any organisation must do the best it can with the resources it has. Therefore, if there are too few people to act as fire wardens it is imperative that building occupants are given basic fire safety training and know what to do when the fire alarm sounds. Failure to act correctly when a fire alarm sounds could have serious, possibly life-threatening consequences if there is a real fire.

Where only a few people can act as fire wardens, they should ensure other occupants are aware of their own responsibilities. Effectively, everyone in the building then acts as an unofficial fire warden and looks out for everyone else.

What happens if the fire warden is not on their floor when the alarm sounds?

In a nutshell, if the fire warden is out of their area when the alarm sounds they must report to the officer in charge to advise they have not swept their area. This is less of a problem when all occupants know what to do and act appropriately. The officer in charge will need to record this fact and, if the Brigade are called, pass that information to the chief fire officer so he can decide what to do.



Regards,

Ian

Thank you all. I've been able to take all of your comments and advice on board and it has certainly 'pointed me in the right direction' to address the situation. Once again thank you very much.

Kindest regards,

Lee.
DPGC.

All visitors (golfers) should be informed of the fire safety procedures as they enter (anything written on tickets, ever explained verbally?), drills should happen on occassion and if that means evacuating visitors, then at least they are taking part as a form of training/role playing the rules.

Any rooms with only one exit route, with more than 60 (example) people in it at any one time - consider distance to final exit, speed of evacuating, who is trained in that room. How many would you think? Me I would say 2 but an extra 1 for holidays as a bare minimum, but I haven't considered obstructions/furniture.

Get an independant fire risk assessment done, ask the assessor the questions when they visit. Check the final document completely and ask the same questions, of the assessor and ask, where does this get addressed in your assessment. Customer is king, and you will get answers. But again, it is down to you the responsible person, how you interprete information as given. If you perceive one marshall, so be it, but reflect on if in court you would feel that your decision was suitable/sufficient/adequate.

Lee,
This is a very difficult question to answer without knowing a few more facts but the short answer is that you need as many as is required to safely evacuate the premises.
Obviously, this doesn't help you a great deal but what you have to take into account is the following:
1. Numbers of persons on the premises.
2. Layout of the premises.
3. What type of function is in progress eg private function, social function, dining etc.
4. Any residential accomodation eg steward, guests etc

When you have looked at the above factors you need to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment that will look at all of these factors in more detail and should then give you the figures that you need. You will then need to train these persons on a regular basis and also to carry out fire drills that should give them more experience in this area. This will also allow you to make any changes to the plans based on your learning experience.

Sorry I can't give you an exact number but as you will see there are a number of considerations that need to be evaluated.

Regards Alan

snuggling? Anything! Lol.

Yes the regulations are unambiguous but their implementation is subject to statutory interpretation (the five rules of how to read an enactment) and the position is this. If a person is injured in fighting a small fire (first for interpretations the notion of small fire) and does this not to effect an escape. That person is contributorily negligent if they fight the fire to do snuggling else other than to effect an escape for themselves or others. So trained or not they must leave the building and escape unless the purpose is to enable another person to escape. They are not a private fire service. If the purpose is to protect assets they do so without legal protection from this legislation. I hope this clarifies the position. Your friendly lawyer.

Hi Lee

You can download free guidance documents that will enlighten you on your responsibilties under the RR(FS)O 2005. I'd guess your club would be classed as a small to medium place of assembly, in which case you may find the following address useful: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk7

Dear Lee
The regulations requires that employers provide suitable arrangements for fire safety and this will include to give responsibilities of fire safety to some members of staff, these members of staff with fire safety responsibilities must be provided with suitable training to be competent to carry out their fire safety responsibilities, and it is important that there is someone to take control during emergency.
When you consider how many people to train you must consider various factors such as: cover during absenteeism, sickness, annual leave and any shift patrons, normally two is sufficient, but this may not cover your requirements, sometimes it is good business planning strategy to train as many people as possible, this will depend as well on the size of the premises, fire wardens are normally required to check the area but without putting themselves at risk and this may require to set up different areas that will be covered by different fire wardens. e.g warehouses, storage areas, remote areas etc
Hope this has answered you question
Workplace Law can provide the fire marshalls training and you can always give us a call if you want to discuss your fire safety requirements further.
Best regards
Maria (Health and Safety Consultant WPL)

Please can you inform me of how many Fire Marshalls an establishment legally requires? I manage a Golf Club where we employ 6 full time staff throughout the week but could have as many as 250 members / players over the weekend.

Thank you.

Hello all,

there are a lot of thoughts going back and forth regarding this subject, however, the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order specifically requires that the responsible person (s) must where necessary, equip their premises with appropriate fire fighting equipment, take measures for fighting fire in the premises and nominate competent persons to implement those measures and that their numbers, their training and the equipment avaiable to them is adequate in respect of the premises concerned.

So in a nutshell, provide the necessary fire fighting equipment and train people in the correct use of it.

This requirement is unambiguous.

Mike Kane.

Alan,
An interesting comment and whilst I am not a lawyer I would like to explore your comment about "The legal position is that a person who uses a fire extinguisher to fight a 'small fire' which is not action needed to effect an escape is a rescuer and is therefore not protected" in a little more detail.

Many organisations discourage staff from using fire extinguishers because they feel that this removes the requirement to provide practical fire training but your comment appears to indicate that they would be protected in law if they didn't need to fight a fire to get out of the building - could you explain where this originates from? You also indicate that the person is not protected if they are classified as "a rescuer" if they attempt to fight a fire where they don't need to in order to escape from the building. Where would this put a person such as a nurse that might very well be able to escape on her own but recognises that the people that she cares for may not be able to if she doesn't tackle a small fire?

Your observation does have some serious implications because government guidance has always made the point that "Firefighting equipment can reduce the risk of a small fire, eg a fire in a waste paper bin, developing into a large one. The safe use of an appropriate fire extinguisher to control a fire in its early stages can also significantly reduce the risk to other people in the premises by allowing persons to assist others who are at risk". Your observation appears to make the point that people should not attempt to fight a fire unless it affects their own individual escape from the building which I think conflicts with what many people understand.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards Alan

A fire extinguiser provides one servicable purpose only, that is to effect a means of escape, it is not there to fight off fires, contrary to popular belief, mainly put about by employers who wish to encourage staff to fight 'small' fires, in the hope they protect assets. The legal position is that a person who uses a fire extinguisher to fight a 'small fire' which is not action needed to effect an escape is a rescuer and is therefore not protected!!!!! Your friendly lawyer.

Sharon,
An interesting question and some interesting comments - lets just consider some of them in detail:
1. Firstly "but it is a fact that you should only use Fire extinguishers on small fires" this is basically true but what is a small fire? To an untrained person this could be a waste paper bin but to a trained person it could be an armchair that was well alight.

2. Secondly lets consider "trained in Fire Equipment usage" this I think is a basic task that all staff need to be aware of and whilst on the subject wouldn't it be a good idea to involve the pupils and to also get the fire safety message to them at an early age?

3. And lastly "Furthermore a fire never takes hold and in an instant is a raging fire, most fires will give off smoke first which will then set off the fire alarm long before the fire actually starts" - this assumes that you have a very comprehensive automatic fire detection system in all areas which sadly many educational facilities don't. So if you don't have this facility it is possible for a fire to develop and the first thing that you know about it is when someone sees smoke or a large fire.

To get back to the original question - what its important to remember is that you have a fire evacuation plan that works and is understood by everyone - yes even the pupils and especially the staff. It is very difficult to give you specific guidance in a forum like this because what works in one establishment may not work in others. In some schools that I have visited they use computer based training and in others they use paper based versions but in all cases it needs to be tested at regular intervals by practical drills and demonstrations. Some establishments train a small core of people who then cascade the information to others and others carry out mass training but whichever one that you choose you have to test the method so that you are sure it will work in an emergency and that if you are ever challenged that you can safely defend your actions.

I hope that helps but if not feel free to contact me.

Regards Alan

I have to say reading both your comments I have a real concern for the safety of children in school.
Have either of you never heard of the following:
A Fire Risk Assessment?
PEEP - Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan?
Training Needs Analysis Plan?
Manatory H&S Training?
H&S Responsibilities Plan
It is no ones job or responcibilty to tackle a fire, the entire staff do not need training, just told and shown what to do in the event of the fire alarm sounding, Fire marshalls are not fire fighters, and are only there along with fire wardens to ensure that the building is evacuated as safly and quicly as possible. Each person having a designated area to check to ensure no one is left in the building, all this should be in you Fire Evac Plan?

Furthermore a fire never takes hold and in an instant is a raging fire, most fires will give off smoke first which will then set off the fire alarm long before the fire actually starts, giving everyone time to leave the building. You should always insure that you have enough fire wardens and fire marshalls to cover your site, spread them out too thin and they might miss someone, also allow for staff who carryout these rolls to be covered when on annual leave or sick, and sort out replacements asap should they leave the company.

Regular fire evacuations twice a year will allow you to assess if your fire Evac plan is working or needs to be improved upon, no one should tackle a fire unless it is very small, ie a piece of electrical equipmnt may over heat such as an printer, insuring that the correct fire fighting equipment is near these items will help put out any small fire. The main priority is the safety of the people not the building, sending of memos doesnt work as everyone may not see them, also if you are the responcible person who covers for you when you are away, and do they know what you know in relation to the Fire Evac Plan.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I have been an FM for 30 years now and I am very concerend when I see postings like this on this site, where it is obvious that courses don't have all the answers, and the people attending them don't always come away from them with the same information.

Not sure of the exact legislation, but it is a fact that you should only use Fire extinguishers on small fires, where it is (comparatively) safe to do so.

A blaze would not be tackled, unless it was to provide an exit where no other exists, and there is no safe area, this would not extinguish the fire, but could keep back the fire while people pass.,Of course this should be covered in your training and FRA's.

I don't think everyone needs training, but rather that everyone knows what to do, so at the start of each term there should be an induction, whereby (amongst other things) the person responsible for overall Fire Safety would brief everyone, then there should be a similar briefing at the first pupils assembly.
Possibly with other tutor group briefings as well.

Belt n Braces where kids are concerned, although my experience of schools it's often the adults that let the side down.

I don't think memos are the answer TBH, surely it would be better to get the Fire Wardens together and brief them as a group, this would lead to a Q&A situation, where concerns could be raised by all.

I work within a school, and they have Fire Wardens, who are trained to engage in such things as "sweeps" to ensure total evacuation is reached, and trained in Fire Equipment usage. There are also people with other roles, such as Register monitors, who check each and every pupil against the register from each class.

All staff are also checked against a register, but there is an issue which has been raised, because pupils are all registered in and out, whereas staff are expected to 'sign' in and out without cross checking or a proper registration system, which is open to abuse or neglect, They are looking in to ways of managing staff lists better.

Hope this helps.

We are aware of all changes in legislation, but this seems to be a grey area.

Is it a legal requirement to provide Fire training to the entire staff of our school totalling 140 we have eight fire wardens and myself ( Premises Manager) who attends local authority refresher courses as fire marshal. we would like to circulate memos to refresh our wardens. However I have been told at courses that in any situation to evacuate rather than tackle a blaze. Please advise.