Demand for migrant workers rising

No offence here -

You are right though... good and bad everywhere... and I fdon't think the percentages would be much different from community to community either!

Gotta love it.....! I'm based inthe North East.... they're not so charming around here.. unless they are in close vicinity to organisations (of which there are many 'up north') who produce a lot of scrap steel!!!

A number of local organisations are actually owned (by very wealthy gypsys) not of the romany type but (what was the term used I heard recently) Community. The term was used as in 'In the Community I come from you don't mess with another mans woman'!! Funny, funny, Wooosh in a moment my vision of romany gypsys in their caravans GONE! I live close to a very popular High St in the North during which once a year there is a fair. Well a load of fun fair rides (extortionate cprices being charged), roughly 85% of the business' most of which are small, close and board up there windows from the Thursday lunchtime, when they arrive, until the Sunday evening when they all leave. Reason being? Fighting, broken windows, foul language etc. Thats not from the Locals I have to add, it's been proven on more than one occasion it's those guys that set up and run the rides, the caravans the ridiculously priced hot dog stands.... Proven last October when one of my eldest sons friends was attacked, stabbed and unfortunately killed by one of the descendents of the nomadic tribes you mentioned earlier.....

As you rightly say there's good and bad in every community...

When I stated things should lighten up a little it was in jest.... I apologies if I have caused any offence.

:O)

Thanks for the support Phil...

At least there is one migrant group of workers who have a little support! ;)

With due respect Amanda, Chris is light enough, apologised in case he caused offence, and then offered his impression on your statement.

And he is right.

Gypsy is similar to Romany, both terms can be used legitimately, whereas Traveller is used as a generic term for those that travel with homes, rather than the Racial term of Gypsy.

Travellers do include Gypsies, but they also include New Age Travellers, (although TBH many of them are from middle class and wealthy families, who have opted out of society, well, as long as the weathers good!)

~dusts off soapbox~
I have a certain respect for Gypsies, certainly for their amazing history, being nomadic tribes from the Indian continent in the first millennia, and there are some that still use the rights of common ground, (just do a streetview of 'Caphays Drove' and at the junction of A3030 you'll see a self-sufficient Gypsy family that has earnt a good deal of respect locally).

I'm not saying that they are all innocent and good people, like every other group of human society there's good and bad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4368791.stm

Oh dear... lets lighten up here!!!!

@Amanda, Of course I have no wish to cause offense, however I was under the impression that a Gypsy and a traveller are not necessarily the same thing.

'Gypsy' Is that not a politically incorrect term...... Travellor I beleive is the terminology that should be used Chris!!!!

Well I can not let Ernie's comments go without one last point... I don't know, go off for a few days and you all give up!

Every person who comes to this countryis a consumer...

Nearly all are workers who contribute... sure there are a few who do not and they fall into the media cauldron of hatred... a meal originally devised for spoon feeding to those of Ernie's convictions.

An unstable economy... surely the definition of a stable economy is one that is predictable... and believe me, ours is very predictable. Boom then Bust.

The trend since WWII is that the booms get bigger and better while the busts get deeper. PREDICTABLE!

Oh yes... and while we are going bust... no one will admit that we are to blame for our own problems; it has to be the blacks, chinese, Polish, Asians or some other culture.

Yeah right!

Lets all join up to the EEC... but only those bits that suit us... and shout about the bits that don't!

For my part...

Welcome to you you polish man who will do the jobs I hate; the black or asian doctor who will fight to save my child when there are insufficient englishment to do it; the gypsy who will work for a day to clear my garden for a day's wage AND the unemployed youngster who will learn my trade from me
while contributing to my business's success. We have rom for you here. We want you to contribute to our society, and one or two of us actually value the contribution you will make.

There will always be people who do not contribute. They will be made up from a mixture of nationalities but in truth they are largely British. Let's not make this about them, but about the huge benefits we gain from their kind.

Go on, Ernie, please have the last word!!

Sorry, Will. Lol

I've got nothing further to add to this lively debate - it's just, dammit all, I'm not going to let Ernie have the last word here!

You're right Chris as long as it can be balanced but it's a bit naive, in my opinion, to think that in reality a balance can be maintained without some control over the size of the community. Too many people, too few productive jobs, not enough consummers either way the result is an out of balance unsustainable economy. If you want evidence just take a look around.

@Ernie

Oops there ya go... just when we were getting on so well!

The size of the community doesn't have an effect... as long as the community supply, consume and distribute.

The ORIGINS of the community are of no consequense..

So for me... bring in the Poles, the Greeks, The Eastern Europeans and anyone else who wants to be part of our great nation and contribute and pay taxes. A better life for them and a better economy for us...

Looks to me like you've got it Chris, manufacture-distribute-consume and money is simply an IOU guaranteed by a third party so that we all don't have to go about our business with a pocket full of chickens. Simple, sustainable and it works, so long as you keep an eye on the size of the community.

OK Lets be honest rather than pandering to popular opinion. If you takje everyone out of the benefits system who should not be there... and give them a job. The effect will be so small as to be unnoticable except insofar as the tabloids will have to blame someone else for the mess. Presumably at that time the issues of immigration will become even more in the public eye.

@Ernie Smith

You know how much it pains me to agree with you :)

As a small minded businessman... I fail to see how billions of pounds... spent by a few million people... (stock exchange/money markets etc.) generating huge profits for someone somewhere.. can contribute to our national economy let alone the global one.

I believe that we produce... we sell... therefore we generate. Whether that is a service or a product.

In many ways I am able draw a parallell between those receiving benefits from the state for not working... and those drawing benefits from the international money markets... for not working.

TO HUGH (ahem a little disgruntled I think!)

My point is one of encouraging folk back into the work stream.... those who are 'scrounging' I understand entirely that there are a number of individuals that 'genuinly' cannot work, however you read and listen to information day in, day out with regard to those who see the opportunity to allow us the tax payer to foot their 'stay at home as I earn more doing so 'attitude. In fact I'm sure that if your ever home during the day watching Jeremy Kyle you'll see this.... ! My suggestion is those that genuinly WANT to work can and in doing so for the benfits they receive, are still in the 'work stream loop' potentially learning and gaining experience.
And yes it insults me that I work 60+hours a week (as the restructure within my organisation dictates) to earn my salary, pay my tax's to read about some of the 'individuals' who relish in the earnings we as the employed provide.
The Government should ensure that those folk who DO scrounge give something back to their local community.....

My comments are NOT aimed at the majority.......

You're not wrong about human nature Chris hence the statement it won’t be easy. I never mentioned the bankers Chris although I do agree they have played their part in creating the current mess. From a personal perspective I consider our governments primarily to blame because instead of looking after the interests of the people they were elected to serve they presided over the exportation of our bread and butter industries along with most of our manufacturing jobs in the interests of globalisation. They believed they could compensate with the creation of a low carbon economy driven by the manufactured fear of manmade global warming but it’s not working, is it? The part the bankers have played started much earlier. When money ceased to be just a token to facilitate trade and became a commodity itself and with the development of financial trading markets and the invention of derivatives (gambling games) etc., it enabled the bankers to create vast sums of paper money out of nothing earning themselves tremendous power and influence which they have used to further their own agendas. Unfortunately for the rest of us they created a house of cards which we are currently watching wobble if not tumble. It’s the bankers who benefit most from globalization, total control of the worlds money = total control of the world. Using the UN they have tried to create the first global currency based on a unit of carbon driven by the same lie mentioned earlier. If they can get everyone on the planet using a carbon credit card then they will have just about won. The failed multicultural experiment, uncontrolled mass immigration in an attempt to eradicate national identities are all part of this programme designed to make us all one worlders. Is that a bad thing? I don’t know it’s probably how the world will eventually develop naturally but they’re trying to force it and right now it’s not doing us much good, is it? We need a government that is outside of the control of the globalist elite and who answer only to the people of this country if we are to ever make things better. If it's not too late now we won't get many more chance to vote one in
Only my opinions, how I see it folks so please don’t shoot me if you don’t agree. It’s a very simplistic stab at explaining a mega complex situation. Is it all nonsense or does it not have a smidgeon of credibility?

Ernie...

Are you suggesting that cycle of Boom and Bust that has followed our economy throughout the last century and into this one; is purely a misnomer? That it didn't hapen before the EU, and before mass immigration?

Surely the Boom and Bust economic model is one of the most difficult things to break out of. Simply because the only way to defeat it is to find a happy medium and stay with it. Unfortunately, hum nature says that when things are going well we will work to make them better. Once they've got better - the economy will turn around and head into decline again.

While it is fashionable to blame the bankers for our current situation; it is not them who caused it. This situation was inevitable. They did, however speed it along and make it worse than it might have otherwise been.

I can not believe that any government of the last century did not want a stable economy and did work to achieve it in the way that they thought best.

Will you're way off mark if you think that its benefit scroungers who have broken our country. Our country has been broken by successive governments implementing Europeanisation and globilisation policies to the detriment of The United Kingdom PLC. It's obvious to all that these policies along with their failed experiment in multicultural social engineering has virtually bankrupt the country and left our economy in tatters.
I personally wouldn't advocate sending anyone to Afghanistan as it's our involvement in that illegal war, and | know there's some debate about its legallity, that has contributed significantly to the financial mess we are in.
I do support some of Amandas suggestions in particular that those who choose to live off benefits should be required to do some work in the community to earn their benefits but schemes like this are small beer. Getting a few people back to work would help but is not the answer. We need to get Britain back to work and that requires the recreation of a bakanced economy and that isn't going to be easy. I can only say again it is impossible untill we have a government that wants to do it.

@ Amanda

You say that your company has laid off 5 people from your team of 6 and that the unemployed should take up the administrative "slack" and that they should be put to work as school cleaners etc.

Leaving aside the insulting sweeping stereotype of describing benefit claimants as "those sat at home watching Jeremy Kyle whitter [sic] on to the unemployed with HUGE familys, homes etc. all provided by the liokes of myself", do you not think that this plan may actually increase the number of unemployed and hence lessen the number of tax-payers? If you were an employer (God forbid) in these tough times and you knew that by laying off administrative staff you could replace them free of charge with benefit claimers, how would you start cost cutting? If you were running the budget of a school and you had, say, 10 part time cleaners earning £5,000 per annum which you could replace for free from the dole queue, would you not immediately save £50,000 a year by making your entire cleaning staff redundant?

I'm only marginally surprised that no-one has yet suggested sending these benefit 'scroungers' that have 'broken' our country off to Afghanistan to fight - mind you, that would only make them migrant workers taking jobs from the local Afghans.....

No problem Makeeda. You're right to be concerned, the labour government significantly increased the number of public sector employees in part because of the reducing numbers of jobs in the manufacturing and other sectors and now the condems are about to reverse that and reduce the numbers again but without there being any alternative employment in place. They are going to start taking benefits off people, to "encourage" them back to work but they haven't ensured there are appropriate jobs for them to take. There's no evidence yet that we have a government that is capable of or has any desire to put in place a cohesive plan that will redress the imbalances that has our economy in tatters. I believe this is because this government is still pursuing Europeanisation and ultimately globalisation to enable the UN and it's sponsors greater control in making the world work to their benefit. There's no evidence that the world is ready for that yet. We do need a government that will sort out the mess but like you say it's easier said than done and it wont happen until we have a government that wants to.

Ernie, like I said I don't want to get personal as it achieves nothing but I think it's a little less than honest to say your views are only concerned with unrestricted immigration. To have one's views influenced by race doesn't necessarily make one a racist but sometimes you come across as it being you're pivotal concern in any issue which is unecessary baggage.

If you are really interested in developing a balanced view ONS offers a blunt starting point but I would recommend looking at articles on the issue via various think tanks. The following think tanks cross part and political perspectives some would tend to support your views and some oher an opposing view. Centre for policy studies, Civitas, Institute for public policy research, Demos, Compass, Smith Institute, Fabian Society, Social Market Foundation.

One think tank that is seen as politically fairly neutral Civitas has numerous articles that would seem to validate elements of your point of view. But this should balanced against some of the work of Demos and the Adam Smith institute.

I do apologise for misinterpreting what you have said, No it is not racist to believe these things, my concern is when the skills are available what will happen then?

The main problem is creating skills so individuals fit the gap in the economy by the time they have graduated, that particular skill is no long need, what happens then? In my opinion the governement should "create" jobs tailored to suit skills that are ready now! (easier said that done!)

Makeeda you either attribute someone else’s post to me or you have misinterpreted something I have said. Either way I have not made a case that bringing in migrant workers is necessarily good for the economy. On the contrary, although I understand Chris’ point that if he cannot fill his positions with home grown labour then of necessity he has to look elsewhere I do not think that having high unemployment and high immigration is a sensible or sustainable way to run the country. Everything is out of balance. Because lots of our manufacturing base has moved elsewhere traditional skilled jobs are few and far between. Lots of people who would have done these jobs are either unemployed or have been employed in the public sector.
There are too many students being educated in disciplines where there just aren’t any jobs for them when they finish college and university. The country is well and truly broken and until we have a government that wants an economy that provides full employment and tailors education and job creation first and foremost for the British people it will never be mended.
Is it racist to believe these things?
BTW some good, valid points Amanda.

Why oh why oh why don't the government employ a strategy that 'if you want to earn any kind of benefit, you have to work for it'

Looking after the gardens of the elderly, clearing grafity, cleaning schools etc..... this could potentially leave our Local Autority workers with the time to be conducting proactive tasks.....

I work for an organisation which does encourage training of it's employees, but is seriously suffering with the depression.... I had a Team of 5, now I am a Team of 1 conducting 6 peoples work... surely in situations of this nature... administrative support could be provided by those on benefits, those sat at home watching Jeremy Kyle whitter on to the unemployed with HUGE familys, homes etc. all provided by the liokes of myself....

Provision of support staff through the unemployed even if it is on a (very) part time basis, a couple of hours a day, will help to alleviate the stress that some of us are under evry working day, and perhaps be the encouragement that some of these people need to get themselves motivated into finding work....

I have no problem particularly with Migrant workers, but they are generally paid a minimum, less than those on benefits!!!

Also... it's a requirement now that if English isn't the 1st Language that the employer must be able to provide certain info (H&S Documentation for example) in the 1st Language of the migrant workers.... keeping translators in work I guess... but costing our business' money.... anyone thought about that????

I agree with Carole in relation to university students, I am current a student and finish in 2 years on a four year course. From my understanding 80,000 graduates enter out of university per year, 40,000 get jobs in their chosen professional, and a 1/4 of jobs are taken from the previous graduate year. I do understand that they are some jobs we as students would not want to do, I personally do not expect to graduate from uni after all my years of studying and get a job as a cleaner, I also don't expect to get high job straight away like someone commented on early. However what I do expect from this government is a "healthy" job market that enables students to obtain a job in there profession, which we are obviously not going to get!!!,..there is some obligation for the government to help graduates get jobs.

Yes, there is need for some migrant workers, nonetheless there is a skilled workforce that is able to take the skilled jobs, they should not migrate people into the UK for these types of jobs, it is not fair on students.

My question to Ernie is what skilled jobs is need? As you made a point in bringing in migrants that will be able to take the jobs need for the economy, however how are we helping the economy when well skilled student entering out of uni cannot find a job!!?