Call for cycle awareness training for HGV drivers

Lyn,

I presume that you are referring to me with your repeated and petty ‘barrack room lawyer’ comments, as I was the one that pointed out the inaccuracies of your previous claims.

You were caught out at the time and need to move on. Wind your neck in, don’t take things so personally and get over it.

This has been a lively debate, which I had thought that I had contributed my final post to, for no other reason that I have said everything that I needed to say on the subject. I too have no wish to get into a slanging match; however I had to respond to you.

I have nothing against anyone taking part in this thread, including you. I may disagree with people’s opinions, but that is as far as it goes and life is too short to get all hyper about such things.

Maybe you ought to look up the quote which is attributed to Abraham Lincoln which begins ‘It is better to remain silent.......’, as it is does offer good advice.

Before I close I would also like to applaud Gary N for his last post, which I thought was constructive and well balanced.

By the way, as I spent the weekend laying bricks and compacting hardcore my nails are far from manicured. In fact the thought of me having a manicure would be highly amusing to anyone that actually knew me.

Well done Brenda, I enjoyed the no more lethal lorries link, it made my observations even more relevant regarding the lack of common sense used by cyclists. If you watch the video clip you will notice that towards the begining a heavy goods vehicle pulling way cear of a cyclist, then towards the end of the clip you'll see a cyclist travelling up the inside of a stream of traffic.
This makes it more clear to me that cyclists in general really don't care about other road users, they seem to take the attitude of you look out for me or you'll get crucified by everyone. (In the interests of accuracy for the barrack room lawyers amongst us, everyone is the a general term not to include the reasonable minded).
On the subject of training it's very pleasing to hear that there are enhanced cycling courses available, something I think would be applauded by all using this network. The only problem is is it's not a legal obligation to have a certificate before taking to the road on a cycle. I think most reasonable peope would welcome cyclists who are certificated and insured on the roads. In my opinion these two items of paperwork would commit the majority of cyclists to safer practices rather than under-taking etc for fear of being penalised by insurance claims in the event of causing or creating an accident. The discription of causing or creating is used to discribe a scene I have witnessed several times where a car has to swerve to avoid a cyclist pulling out of a junction into moving traffic without stopping. Again for the barrack room lawyers, no there were no accidents observed but, they were clearly in danger of causing an accident by making motorist swerve to avoid them.
For the barrack room lawyers, I will not be getting involved in any silly debates with you because I have better things to do with my time, you know who you are, so don't risk breaking your manacured nails replying. To all others I welcome comment and critisism of my opinions.

Cycle training has undergone a massive change in the last 10 years from the cycling proficiency test, which was aimed at children, to the National Standards for cycle training and the Bikeability tests, which are also for adults. The National Standards or Bikeability http://www.bikeability.org.uk/ is on the way to being well established in England and Wales. Scotland have their own high quality scheme but also accept The National Standards.

The National Standards are delivered though a network of instructors and instructor training providers http://www.bsca.org.uk/

In London at least there is a lot of information given out by the Metropolitan Police to cyclists on sharing the road with lorries safely, including sessions where cyclists are taken into the driving seat of a lorry to see how poor the visibility within a lorry is. I have been stopped by police twice over two years and been offered a tour of a lorry cab. It was shocking to see even a burly policeman in hi-vis gear become completely invisible.

There is a website that gives more information.
http://www.no-more-lethal-lorries.org.uk/

The larger, heavier, wider the vehicle the higher the risk.

Due to the increased risk the driver/operator has to take more training.

Cyclist - none
Motorbike - Test and theory.
Bigger Bike - Another test and theory
Car - Test and Theory
Car with trailer - ?
7.5T - Test, Theory & DCPC (Driver Certificate of Professional
Competence)
18T - Test and Theory
Artic 44T - Test and Theory

EU law now requires a Bus or HGV driver to complete 35 hours training every five years to get his DCPC card. What other vehicle sector does this?

As with all operators of any plant, machinery or vehicle, even when qualified there are some who ignore the rules of the road and undertake, speed, drive/ride without regard for any other users of the space, irrespective of the vehicle they drive.

Perhaps all road users should be given training or at least told about all vehicles on the roads and there risk to all users.

The roads are a multi-use space for vehicles and pedestrians and we cannot get rid of any of the users, so risks are managed. Paths, cycle routes, road, pedestrian crossings, etc.

In all sectors there are people who ignore the risks from other users or are completely oblivious to the risks.

More training for all, not just HGV drivers.

@Mark Tucker

"On the one hand we have the HGV fans, many of whom appear to have a vested interest in HGV driving, and appear to be in total denial of the risks that is posed to other road users. "

The fact that some people are willing to present an opinion from the perspective of those who are not very well represented here does not mean that we have a vested interest. Merely that we would like some level playing field!

"On the other hand, we have ordinary motorists who on a regular basis have to interact with HGVs on the road, in real life driving conditions. "

OK so that sets out your alliegances then. Thank the lord our truck drivers aren't driving in the real world or experiencing the hazards presented by the under trained, inexperienced or simply foolish drivers around them.

I was amused to notice that you did not comment on the foolish and sometimes suicidal behaviour of the cyclist. After all, it's only what this thread is all about, no reason to include it then.

Gary N
As for the 7-car and 1 HGV pile up, I don't know. The HGV who tipped his vehicle and it's load all over the road can't really blame anyone else I wouldn't have thought, and the HGV driver who killed the 2 car drivers is being prosecuted by the police for dangerous driving, so that probably answers that question.

I think that this thread is going around in circles. There are two directly opposing views, and it is apparent that these will never agree.

On the one hand we have the HGV fans, many of whom appear to have a vested interest in HGV driving, and appear to be in total denial of the risks that is posed to other road users.

On the other hand, we have ordinary motorists who on a regular basis have to interact with HGVs on the road, in real life driving conditions.

I am sure that as a HGV driver you / your husband / mate / work colleague / neighbour is one of the good guys, that doesn’t cut up other drivers, pull out without indicating, obstruct faster vehicles for mile after mile or tailgate old ladies in the middle lane; however to suggest that these things don’t take place is just not realistic.

In the space of this thread we have had attempts to blame cyclists, car drivers, old people and now foreigners for the shortcomings of some HGV drivers. Criticising other road users (though an obvious distraction attempt) may in some cases be justified, as no one is perfect and everyone should be accountable for their actions. However, the attempts to blame foreign HGV drivers to divert attention from the actions of ‘our drivers’ is a rather unpleasant development. I won’t expand further on that particular aspect, except to say that in my experience this is not the case – good and bad driving is displayed by HGV drivers of all nationalities. In fact drivers of all types of vehicle, from all countries.

And yes, I did say that some HGV drivers drive well, so let’s put this ridiculous claim of a witch-hunt to bed. Sometimes it is hard to listen to criticism of your views, profession, interest etc, However just because it is hard doesn’t mean that there isn’t merit in it.

Hi Irene,

The HGV driver even delivers the push bikes to the shop for anyone to buy!! :-))

You mention Johnny/Jenny Foreigner and their non-compliance. I did mention some figures about fines imposed by VOSA on the 15th September.

Since May 28th 2009 VOSA have had powers to stop any HGV and issue a fixed penalty or immobilise the vehicle. This has generated £3.2 million so far.
It would be excellent if this money was solely used to increase officers and make the roads even safer, but as with speed camera revenue this money is routed straight to the Treasury.

Lets hope VOSA does not decide it is too expensive to police these new powers and cancels it.

Will Hough - agree with you entirely.

I am a car driver of over 30 years and my husband is an LGV driver of over 35 years so I can see both sides of the argument.

Accidents aren't always the lorry drivers' fault. I've seen some madcap LGV drivers but I've also watched in amazement as cyclists bob and weave and undertake lorries and having some insight, from my husband over the years, into how lorries need to manoevre, my heart has been in my mouth at times when I've seen cyclists put themselves (and everyone else) into danger just to get a few yards in front.

Most car drivers and certainly cyclists, do not have the benefit of training in how a LGV will need to manouevre, the stopping distances of a fully loaded vehicle, the blind spot where a cyclist can be "lost" to the driver's view.

LGV drivers do have extensive training before they are allowed on to our roads. During their training, they learn how to be aware of other road users and what lies ahead. They have to think ahead. The sheer weight and size of their truck means they can't just pull up or over. They can't just swerve out of the way.

Car drivers have to pass a competency test but what about cyclists? Nothing. They can pop into Halfords, buy a bike and ride off into the sunset without benefit of any highway code knowledge or understanding of other road users and for sure, no idea how a 40 tonne vehicle will react.


There's also another viewpoint. Whilst UK lorry drivers face a series of tough tests before being allowed to take these leviathans onto our roads, the foreign drivers who use our road networks daily are not so well governed. It would be interesting to hear how many of these incidents/accidents involve foreign LGV's.

A friend who happens to be a traffic policeman says that it is almost impossible to prosecure these drivers. UK drivers have to abide by very rigorous tacho inspections; driving hours, rest periods, speeds of vehicles etc., etc. are all noted on the digital tachos now in place. There's no hiding - VOSA can check on where the driver has been, at what speed and how many breaks he or she's had.

Just how long has "Johnny/Jenny Foreigner" been on the road today, driving over from le continent without the same checks that our boys & girls have ?
How tired are they and if their concentration lapses - even for a second - the vehicles they are in charge of become killing machines.

And another thing.... how many car drivers think that the roads are meant just for them and LGV's shouldn't be on them? We live in a materialistic world now and we have to have everything available to us 24/7. Where does it come from? How does it get to us? From all over the world, delivered to us by.... LGV's.

Sorry for the rant but I've watched this thread with increasing dismay at the witch hunt on our lorry drivers. They are the ones who provide all of us with everything we eat, we wear, we use. It's the cyclists who should be trained before being allowed out on the roads.

Is she driving an HGV?

Finally.

7 cars, 1 HGV. Does that not make it 87.5% likely that it wasn't the HGV driver's fault?

The theme that is developing is 'witch-hunt'.

@ Gareth There does seem to be a theme. How come soo many people do not see something as big as a HGV??

7 car pile up, 1 HGV. I think this shows how many car drivers do not give enough room to stop or are just not paying attention. They are much more nimble and an incident can be avoided easier than if a HGV needs to stop suddenly or swerve.

You mention incidents for one day that involved HGV's, but was it the fault of the HGV Driver?

I was unfortunate enough the other week to get caught up in the traffic jams caused by vehicles avoiding the blocked M6 when 2 people were killed when involved in an incident with an HGV. Unfortunately for me, there was a further 7 car pile up a mile from work, on my main route home (again an HGV was involved). 7 miles up the road, there was mayhem caused by an HGV who, taking a roundabout too fast, had tipped over and spread his load across the road. Seems to be a bit of a theme here!

Chris,

The simple answer is yes – if your vehicle (or anyone else’s for that matter) is making driving dangerous for other road users, it should be improved. I would have thought that this was obvious.

As for avoiding the spray that lorries throw up, I never drive too close to a vehicle in front, so you are way out in your assumption. Spray from lorries travelling in the opposite direction hits a car windscreen like a monsoon, so no matter how prepared you are for it, or how ‘adjusted’, for a brief second or two you can’t see anything, and that is not safe. Likewise on a motorway, the spray from a HGV spreads out across three lanes during very bad weather, so you don’t even need to be directly behind to suffer – you often see drivers having to use lane 3 to overtake a lorry in lane 1 due to the shockingly bad visibility.

How would you suggest us average motorists deal with this? Maybe we should all pootle around in agricultural vehicles that are too slow and cumbersome for the issue of overtaking to ever arise anyway?

As for my other, tongue in cheek point, what I was trying to get at was that while there are considerate and inconsiderate cyclists, and considerate and inconsiderate HGV drivers; an inconsiderate or reckless cyclists will in nearly every case damage only themselves, whereas an inconsiderate HGV driver could damage many other people, usually leaving themselves unscathed.

By the way, I didn’t realise that there was an actual You Tube clip, I only mentioned You Tube hypothetically – the incident that I was describing actually happened in front of me, I saw it with my own eyes only last week.

@Mark Tucker...

interesting that lorry design should be adjusted to suit the average motorist... are we to assume that the average motorist is too dim to adjust his driving to cope with an obvious change in road conditions?

If lorry spray is inhibiting your forward vision... guess what... you are driving too close to the lorry... back off. My land rover throws some spray up too... should we redesign this so that other motorists can drive around oblivious to possible reduction in visibility.

The You tube clip you mention is simply there to highlight the exception to the rule.

The honest truth is that if you feel unable to complensate for the varying road conditions, simply because there is a big bad truck in front of you.. you might consider riding a bicycl;e or getting a lift.

Do Cyclists affect visibility?

No, they don't... but let's remember this thread's main point.

They all stop their bicycles and put on high visibility safety jackets and then ride with much more care than usual.

Would have posted earlier, but had to wait for my split sides to recover.

I have had to drive many miles in the dreadful driving conditions this week. The rain has caused huge areas of standing water and seriously affected visibility. I have to say, whenever I have encountered a cycle, it has not really affected visibility at all, and consequently has had no effect on the safety of other road users either.

However, whenever I have had the misfortune to come across a HGV on a busy road, visibility (and therefore safety) have been seriously affected. The rain, spray and grease that they throw up make driving of anything else in the vicinity much more dangerous. This situation can never be completely resolved, but lorry design needs to improve to reduce the spray given off and improved driver behaviour is also required.

It may make for a great You Tube clip, but the true knight of the road who ploughed through a half flooded road at speed this week (rather than slowing down or taking his turn to pass the flood with oncoming traffic as others were doing) should have looked in his mirror afterwards. Then he may have seen the completely drowned family that were stood at a bus stop that he had just covered in water.

By the way, I followed a HGV into Newport Pagnell services the other day with a brilliant sign on the back. It had obviously been doctored with masking tape and a marker pen, but instead of the usual ‘If you can’t see my mirrors – I can’t see you’ statement it now read
‘If I don’t look in my mirrors – I can’t see you’

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Brilliant Will....simply brilliant!

@will

I belive your assumptions will be adopted by the vast moajority of competitors. Though the "seaty" might give a few entrants an advantage!

I was surprised to find out that the current 'Tour of Britain' is a road race. I assumed it would be along pavements, across pedestrian crossings, the wrong way round the one way system and through the pedestrianised areas of the town centre (all at night, without lights and a fellow competitor having a 'seaty')!

17 September, Nottinghamshire

Cyclist cycling towards junction traffic lights-cum-pedestrian crossing. Nothing wrong with that; except that he was on the wrong side of the road. His wheels were between the double yellow lines so I suppose that is okay because it is probably a new cycle lane that hasn't yet been widely publicised.

@Gary

To be honest I find your comment childish and without insight. Why would a cyclist need brakes? After all it is not like they give way to anyone.

Now now children!

@ Chris :-))

That's probably right. No mention of brakes!! As long as there is enough tread on the sole of your shoe or the toe is not worn through.

Hi Gary,

I think it is generally accepted by cyclists that their machine should have pedals... and usualy wheels

err... that's about it as far as rules go.

Obviously there is no minimum age and the machine does not have to be fit for purpose.