competant persons

Hello

Chances are they set the alarm off making the toast.

Barry

Now Don, are you as confused as I am. If so thanks Phil :-). Really, thanks Alan and Mike. The gist of your advice is to check your evacuation time and reduce it where possible. Don't fear to shout, scream or swear at people who bimble out with hot drinks and toasts in their hand. Of course, go and explain your outburst and apologize afterwards.
I had an accidental fire alarm activation yesterday and it when as smoothly as per our fire drills. Everybody was out in less than 4 minutes.
Regards
Anoop

Hello all,

there are a number of factors which affect means of escape all of which are present in all buildings, but which will vary in importance according to circumstances. Included are:

The primary and secondary construction of the building
The number of exits
The travel distances involved
The time of evacuation
The occupancy and process within the building
The management control exercised

A simple illustration of how these factors apply is to take an industrial estate comprising identical single storey industrial buildings all constructed with non combustible materials. If building A is used by a stonemason then the construction of the building, the means of escape provision and the time allowed to evacuate this building will be very different to building B next door which is being used as a vehicle body repair and paint spray shop.

Same buildings, different circumstances, all of which must be considered when making decisions on means of escape strategies to be employed.

Iain (above) mentions tenability which is probably the most important variable factor to calculate in respect of means of escape as, again, identical neighbouring buildings can produce wildly different results with regard to smoke production, heat release, fire spread, toxicity and occupier response.

I hope that this helps

Mike Kane

I think that what you are referring to is the following:

Time of evacuation is dependent on the following factors;

1.Building construction
2. Occupancy

The construction of buildings are divided into three basic types,

Class A - complete noncombustible construction, i.e. elements of structure, floors, and walls. Supporting structure of brick or concrete;
Class B - traditional construction, i.e. noncombustible walls with combustible floors;
Class C - combustible construction, i.e. timber floors and walls.

Based on these classes arbitrary evacuation times were decided upon and the times that are generally accepted as -;

Class 'A' construction - 3 minutes
Class 'B' construction - 2.5 minutes
Class 'C' construction - 2 minutes
These are not hard and fast times, and can be extended or reduced according to the particular circumstances.

The above times were derived from actual evacuation times that were experienced in a number of fires, such as the Empire Palace Theatre Fire in 1911 and from research that was carried out in the Post War Building Studies. However, these times were only really satisfactory for small conventional buildings and could not be used with the more complicated and high rise buildings that came along after these studies which required a fire engineered approach.

I hope this helps.
Alan

The source of evacuation tmes disapear into the mists of time with no real quantifiable rationale. What is more important is to satisfy yourself that conditions will not become untenable before the last person leaves. Traditinally regulation was prescriptive but in a performance regime no one shold be dictating exact times. The appropriate time required is found by an approprite assessment and you should note that tavel distance, as dictated in Approved Document B or the Scottish Technical Handbooks does not automatically mean that the time to escpe is appropriate, but wll tend to do so.

Come on then Alan, answer this one for us

Hi Phil,
I attended an In house Fire Warden Trainer course last year and the Fire service instructor said that. Personally, I think the Bradford Football Stadium tregedy is the origin of this

Anoop,
In one of your earlier posts you mention an evacuation time of 4 minutes. I have often read or heard Fire Safety Practitioners trot this out as if it was an emphatic rule. I have struggled to find its origin. It is often stated and frequently applied but where does it come from?
PhilM

Hi Don, sounds like you are not far off my age bracket (55 to 60). Don't get carried away as you have all the relevant knowledge. No class room will teach you all the legislations and before you have taken your transport home you would have forgotten most.
As an employee you have highlighted the shortcomings to your boss all it needs is to tell him/her that for an annual cost of £300 you can employ a professional company who will come and teach all your fire wardens on site to make them competent, you being at the helm.
Regarding your own training is concerned I think, like me, gone as far as you can. Next step would be diploma/degree. Are you cut out for this? Again your company might have an outsourced HSE advisor. Look up and speak to them.
Regards
Anoop

Don.

Thanks for your reply - have you discussed this part of the new regulations with your boss:
Safety assistance
18. —(1) The responsible person must, subject to paragraphs (6) and (7), appoint one or more competent persons to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures.

As you will see it states "must" which is not an option except for where paragraphs 6 & 7 apply which I don't think they would in your case. Could I also ask who you consider to be the "responsible person" in your company you or your boss? Is this responsibility covered in your Heath and Safety or Fire Policy document?

You have obviously received some fire and safety training and have some useful health and safety qualifications but feel a little unsure about how to progress in this area and this was why I stated that experience was also an important factor. I note that you have attended a Fire Risk Assessment Course - could I ask if this was just a look at the new legislation rather than an in depth course?

I see that you previously had a Fire Certificate and as I said in my first reply provided that you have not changed too much and the certificate was correct and reasonably up to date you shouldn't have too many worries on the fire safety aspect but I understand your uncertainty and wish to make sure that everything is ok.

I note that you are having difficulty in getting the funds for training and in these difficult times fire and safety are two aspects that usually find difficulty in getting support from senior management and so it might be worth showing your manager some of the recent heavy fines that have been given to companies that have fell foul of the new regulations. From the information that you have given me you appear to have some very good background training and I would think that perhaps a visit by a competent fire professional is probably all you need to set you on the right path and give you some useful experience.

Regards Alan

Hello ANOOP.
I go along with what you say also.We have carried out the Fire drills,and did all the timings etc.
Its training what I would like,as I have told ALAN I have taken and passed the NGC1,2 and 3,and also I am a Technician Member of I.O.S.H. Which is all very well but does not help me with Fire Legislation.
Another thing is I am not getting any younger and I need to get some useful information into my head before it all turns to mush(although sometimes I think it already has)
Regards DON.P

Many Thanks ALAN.
We have carried out a Fire Risk Assessment,but we have not appointed a "competant person"which is where my query originated.My boss says one is not needed,so that is why I am seeking advice.
1.Yes we did have a Fire Certificate under the previous legislation.
2.I myself came to the "medium risk"conclusion myself,due to past history,very few flammable substances,and any Hot Work is covered by permits
3.I attended a course on FRAs at our local Fire Service training college,and trained in the use of fire extinguishers etc.Not that it covers much Fire Legislation but I completed the Nebosh National General Certificate in H & S.But I have got to say I need more knowledge of Fire Safety.
4.I have read some of the new legislation,but not all as yet.
Its the usual story though I am willing to take on the roll,but as yet cannot get the funding for further training.
Regards DON.P

Alan has given a quite a detailed advice but your immidiate concern should be to get your staff out to safety in less than 4 minutes. This is done by the competent staff who are made up of Fire Wardens and Chief Fire Marshall and a coordinator(most probably you). A competent person is one who has a subject knowledge, knows his/her limitations ( asks for outside help when in doubt) and willing to be trained and upkeep his/her training. Fire Warden should be able to evacuate and check their designated area in 90 second. Once you have done FRA, to know if your policies and mangement works you need to conduct Fire Drills atleast once in 6 months. Hope this gives you some food for thought to undersatnd Alan's advise.

From your response it would appear that you have not yet carried out a Fire Risk Assessment or appointed a "competent person". It would probably not be a good move to contact your local Fire Safety Officer because I'm sure that you realise that you should have already carried out this assessment and the local authority might not be very happy if you inform them of this fact.
Could I ask you a few questions:
1. Did you have a Fire Certificate under the previous legislation?
2. How did you arrive at your "medium risk" conclusion
3. Do you have anyone on site that has any fire training apart from the use of fire extinguishers and what to do in the event of fire?
4. Have you read the guide to the new legislation?

It's always very difficult to advise people on this matter without additional information but if you have not yet received any professional advice you may find this is the best way to progress the matter. In my experience I find that when companies try to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment (FRA) without specialist advice they invariably miss many important aspects and these can sometimes be the most important aspects. If you previously had a Fire Certificate that was not too old and have not made many changes then things may not be too bad but you cannot always guarantee this.
The size of a company has very little to do with the risk as you can have a building with only a small number of persons but if the work that they are engaged in is potentially hazardous and they use dangerous chemicals and materials then the risk can be much higher that a company with many employees that work in a safe environment with non hazardous materials.
Competency is also a difficult aspect to advise on as there is no definitive standard for this area of fire safety and there is also no one training course that can also guarantee to fulfil this requirement. What is normally required is a basic understanding of fire safety and its effects together with a level of experience that will give the person the confidence to be able to inspect the fire safety arrangements and to report on any problems they find but it's worth remembering that in this area "a little knowledge can be very dangerous"

I hope this helps but if not please get in touch.

Regards Alan

Hello

They do not as a matter of course advise but will quote the RRO.

Barry

Many Thanks Mark.
I go along with your suggestion,I was just hoping to get a varied input first.

Can I suggest you contact your local fire safety officer as they will advise accordingly free of charge.

hello
I would like to know if anyone has had anything to do with the Regulatory Reform(Fire Safety)Order 2005 ?.It says you must appoint one or more competant persons depending on the size and use of your premises.My query is the size where it becomes necessary to have one and the possible training or qualifications to be classed as the competant person?.We are an engineering company with 100 employees,18 cnc machines and I would class ourselves as a medium risk premises.
Many Thanks