Time off for fertility treatment

RICHARD.
sorry, but i forget to mention your post.
in answer,
have you conducted a 'suitable and sufficient' risk assessment on your cleaner?
if you have not then i suggest you get it completed fast.
ensure that your coshh assessmens are completed and chemicals included in the RA.
When you refer this cleaner to OH she will have to agree to this and the release of information, your OH will need to be informed of the chemicals you use.
my advice is to ensure your chemicals are environmentally friendly, your ra covers all aspects of work for this lady and is reviewed at each stage of treatment.
do not leave yourself open to a court case if the ivf fails and doing the above will show the cleaner that you are looking after her welfare at the same time as complying with HASAW act etc.

well this has certainly taken the highlight since the original post.
all the way through there are interesting facts on morality and the laws cans and cannots.
to all those that have been through this and those that have not, i feel for you all.
yes we are currently going through this and just waiting for a small op before trying again.
we are lucky, we were referred by our gp, no costs and going to borne hall.

because we are referred by the GP, every appointment is classed as a doctors appointment, every treatment is classed as doctors or hospital depending on where we go and at what stage.

when a woman goes through certain stages, she is not allowed to drive, stand, sit she is told to lay and rest. Her sick note, or should we now say 'fit note' will state 'unfit for work'.
what it will no longer state is why and this will come from a certified doctor, if you did not pay ssp for this then you most certainly be facing a law suit.

There may not be exact guidance as far as the law is concerned on time off but if an employee has a fit note and it states unfit to work then as far as ssp is concerned, surely you should pay ssp.

I wont even bother covering the moral side to this or the unsupportive employer. i will just say a very big thank you for the two employers that have been considerate, careing and kind enough to allow the male side of this marriage the flexability and time off to support his wife during this very emotionally and physically tiring time.

Will i get that golf holiday if this works? no way, not even if it doesnt because it will be round three.
BUT IT WILL BE WORTH IT even if some of you believe this sort of treatment is self inflicted, its not, its actually a medical condition.
SEE YOU IN COURT lol

Welcome Leanne, as you may have spotted from the leangth of thread it seams to confuse and rattle a few cages however simples it maybe.

There are those that manage to turn it into a vanity decission or issue of sort of social esthetics, others recognise the pastoral, palliative element of the elective medical treatment for a perceived social / personal disability or impairment to concieve with ease.

Were it any other congenital disability rather than an elective some would say socially cosmetic medical treatment their attitude or repsonse maybe significantly different triggering some empathy perhaps nevertheless, following diagnosis treatment maybe necessary and perceived as the only reasonable course of action.

Therefore, whether one or the other is disabled and/or a dependent of the other allows for, if nothing else, what used to be called compassionate leave which if refused is most likely to affect the relationship even performance and productivity of someone who will not understand the lack of empathy and may not react well to the perceived "approval deprivation".........

However, the point of any policy is to remove uncertainty from the equation and/or at the very least to provide a framework for considering any request for any type of "leave" statutory or otherwise especially where occupational health of any individual may be at risk.

Of course, cost/benefit, will be a calculation that will come into the equation in proposing any sort of standard or limitations, as with short/longterm sick pay, beyond which there maybe a scale of changes but, as with any framework it will provide a degree of clarity for both parties and a start point for discussion should it need to be reviewed over time.

Hope that provides a starter for ten Leanne and no doubt others will add their more or less emotive two-peeny-worth ?

Does anyone have, or can recommend a good IVF/Fertility Treatment Policy to help with queries such as these?

This post has been removed because it contravened our guidelines.

Richard,

Always bear in mind that when you write to a GP (even if you offer to settle their invoice) you will receive one-sided advice, advice from a general practitioner whose priorities are getting his patient back to health, and respecting his duty of care towards that patient.

An occupational health advisor works for you, and gives you an answer (which if necessary ignores the patient's own thoughts) of how this conditon/illness/disability can best be managed from YOUR BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE.

You'll find that the OHA will often say that the person is fit to come back to work, when the GP has said they need another 6 months off.

Richard

You need advice from occupational health not occupational therapy; they are completely different specialities. It sounds as if you need good advice as soon as possible, before the situation gets entrenched and difficult to manage.

Hi Guys. Richard Hume here.... Thanks for your comments. I am trying to be supportive despite what Debbie accuses me of as are her colleagues. BUT, the point I am trying to make is that I have no way of checking her story. I have discussed the issues with her and got her to sign a GP consent form, however the clinic refuses to give ANY information. I wrote to them asking that they must have some leaflets or giv their clients some kind of information pack. They reluctantly sent me something which doesn't support any of what my employee is saying, leading me to think that she is perhaps making mountains out of molehills. In the meantime, her job isn't getting done, my customers are complaining and her colleagues are getting tired of following her around. Remember, she is a cleaner who cannot bend, cannot empty bins and can't use chemicals. She refuses to use holiday entitlement for rest days, she won't change her hours, and when under treatment lets me down with hardly no notice. I am quickly coming to the conclusion she is unfit/unable to do the job. Two of you have suggested an occupational therapist and this may be the way forward. I am due to have another informal chat with her and to say that I am not prepared to carry on like this. We must agree a way of moving forward that suits us both which may mean making some tough decisions. I really do want to help her, but have no supportive info or legislation making it extreeeeeemely frustrating
Thanks to James and Jenny. Very helpful!!

Richard, I have to say that your employee may not be swinging the lead, but could be finding it very difficult emotionally. Infertility is heartbreaking, at times I've only been able to cope thanks to support of my fantastic church family especially my pastor. I'm usually avery lively outgoing person but when I'm down I go quiet and yes it may appear if I'm feeling really bad as though I'm the living dead. As for the not lifting waste paper baskets, I'm not sure on that one, if your employee has had the embryo/s put back then she may well have been advised to avoid the things that need to be avoided during pregnancy. I assume you're talking about an average size basket which wouldn't or shouldn't have anything heavy in it. The chemicals one is trickier. i do know that pregnant women are advised to avoid even some household cleaning products if possible but if she needs to use them, then to use gloves and ensure the area is well ventilated by opening a window.
Situation with me is that my pastor hasn't got back to me yet, he's away at the moment and was very busy before he went but he did look over it. My appraisal is on Wednesday and it's not the store manager doing it. I'm going to raise the issue of comments about my hair and weight along with a few others which have arisen.

Richard,

I can see you are in a difficult position. Unfortunately there is no clear guidance as to how employers should deal with staff undergoing treatment. There is no statutory right to time off for fertility treatment, and the laws that protect pregnant women don't apply to those who are trying to conceive.

I would encourage you to firstly try to address the issue informally, have a chat with the employee to see if there is any way you as an employer can help. It might be that the employee is not aware of the conduct you describe and it could be a result of preoccupation. The discussion might refocus the employee and resolve the issues.

If the above has no effect then you will need to take further action. I assume you do not have a fertility treatment or IVF policy, so you need to tread carefully and find the balance between being a reasonable employer and not allowing employees to ‘swing the lead’. Clearly this employee’s performance is not up to the required standard. I would recommend that you ask for a medical report from the employees GP, or an independent medical adviser, to establish whether there are reasons why the employee cannot carry out the duties you list. If there are reasons, and these are linked to the IVF treatment, you could consider reallocating work for a short period of time while the treatment takes place.

A Fertility treatment is not a 'deemed incapacity' for statutory sick pay (SSP) purposes. However, the treatment can affect people in different ways. An employee may well be ill due to the treatment, for example through depression or stress. If this is the case, it is up to the employer whether or not to accept the incapacity as stated on any medical certificate or form, to consider SSP entitlement.

The problems she is experiencing may centre round particular times in the fertility treatment – so you may wish to suggest that she takes some annual leave around those times and that you will cope with short notice. You may also allow some unpaid leave if necessary.

The main advice here is to communicate clearly with the employee so that there can be a constructive discussion around the problem. You need your work done and she wants her fertility treatment. Both of you have strong desires and these need to be aired and a compromise reached.

There are two key issues here. First, the process of IVF is inevitably emotionally traumatic, and a supportive employer will help reduce stress and promote a positive atmosphere at work for all. Second, apart from time attending hospital for the technical process of IVF, the pregnancy should be no different to any other, so there is no medical indication for any further absence from work or adjustment at work other than for the usual pregnancy issues.

If you have any questions, particularly if you feel the employee is 'swinging the lead', I strongly recommend an occupational health opinion or an obstetric specialist opinion. It may be better to negotiate time off 'up front' either as special leave or additional holiday rather than medicalise issues.

A GP is likely to be the patient advocate and may just give whatever sick notes are asked for. I have seen a GP recommend five months sickness absence for IVF with no medical justification five separate times for one individual, and seen management grant it because of fear of litigation, all at full pay at public expense.

Debbie, surely Richard is trying to give this lady support by seeking to find out the facts?

Richard, I wonder whether a specialist occupational health assessor would be the person to examine this lady, and the provide you with guidance?

Like others, I would be interested in reading what the law says. As has already been said there are a couple of 'groups' that these ladies (and men?) could be put into:

-the same as people who undergo voluntary cosmetic surgery, or people who get injured doing things like rock climbing/drunken antics

-people with a disability

-equivalent to pregnant ladies

I think we're all agreed that this situation needs more sensitivity than the first option. For the second, a disability is defined as "physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities" - is getting pregnant a ladies normal day-to-day activity?

Re the final option, it appears that this would centre on whether the lady is defined as a "pregnant woman". On this very website, I found this piece about a lady in the advanced stages of IVF:

http://www.workplacelaw.net/news/display/id/13860

If I could quote a couple of paragraphs from the comment:

"The ECJ ruled that a woman is not a 'pregnant worker' under the Directive before an embryo has been transferred into her uterus... Crucially, however, the ECJ went on to rule that it would, nevertheless, be unlawful direct sex discrimination under the Equal Treatment Directive if a woman were to be dismissed because she is in the later stages of fertility treatment." The case was Mayr v Bäckerei und Konditorei Gerhard Flöckner OHG, a Belgian case referred to the ECJ.

Hi Richard , im reading your comments with interest , ive had IVF treatment 4 times, ive carried on working while under going injections and all the other treatments such as scans and appointments . Occasionally i have needed to rest and yes i too have probably walked around like a zombie at tmes.
I've tried not too complain too much while having the treatment but until you actually go through this traumatic process your self i dont think your in a position to actually comment on whether this lady is " swinging the lead or not !" its a painful and extremely emotional time. Each person reacts diffrently to treatment and the crazy drugs they give you play havoc with your body.
I too was told not to lift ( im not sure if a waste paper basket comes into this or not ) but again it really depends at what stage her treament is at ,how long has this lady worked for you ? was she like this before her treament started ? How long has she worked at your company ? surely if she's had good appraisals in th past you could put it down to Treatment, i dont know about cemicals effecting her or not but could you not compromise and get some cleaning products that are kinder to the enironment that have low chemicals ? ( just a thought )
Like i said ive had IVF 4 times and each time i have had it its effected me differently each time , what i do know is its painful and its a very distressing time , shame you couldnt be a little more supportive ? all i can say is thank God i dont have collegues like her ! doesnt look like she'll be getting much empathy or undestanding from you lot .

I have a member of staff who is undergoing IVF. She moves around the building with a like something out of 'living dead', shuffling around blankly. She is a cleaner and can't empty waste paper baskets (according to her) nor cn she use chemicals as they make her ill (according to her). I can find no evidence of this on all the websites and even from the information sent from the clinic she is attending ( I had to write to them and ask for it). I think she may be 'swinging the lead' but my hands are tied trying not to cause upset etc. Her colleagues have had enough of her and no I need to take some action. Where can I get REAL information, I can only ever find a couple of lines in an article. Surely there is something moer concrete???

This post has been removed because it contravened our guidelines.

Just a thought, but could ECHR articles 8 (Right to Family Life) and 12 (Right to Marry) have a bearing here? The relevant legislation for those not employed by the State is the Human Rights Act 1998. I'm no expert on this sort of thing so I'll leave it to others to read through and give their thoughts back.

Hi I too have had IVF at my last company , they wouldnt allow me to take time off and i had to take annual leave , my senior manager said it was going down as cosmetic treatment , i was livid and left the company soon after , i was hurt and insulted by the comments made .

Haven't given boss the letter yet, a going to ask my pastor to proof read it and see if he thinks its ok on Sunday.

LOL I wondered how grey hair ended up in the tea break thread LOL

Percentagesd are wrong way round, there's a 40% chance of IVF being succesful and if it is, there's a 25% chance of it being twins. I would actually love to see how my boss handles that one especially as our store doesn't stock maternity cothes, ony the larger ones do (one I work in is medium size). I've written a letter today telling her that I'm having IVf in the autumn and that I hope we can come to a compromise. I've suggested that time off be taken from holiday entitlement. If she gets awkward, then I will take action and might just mention the comments about my weight and grey hair as well as other issues (see tea breaks thread). Not only does my pastor know employment law, he also has a Masters degree in Human Rights.

My pastor knows employment law well, that's why I'm going to ask him for advice on wording the letter forewarning my boss that I'm going to be having IVF, treatment will hopefully be starting in September. He also has a masters in human rights. The thought has already crossed my mind as to what attitude my boss is going to have if the IVf is succesful. There's a 25% chance of it being succesful and if it is, there's a 40% chance of me being pregnant with twins. Boss is definitely not jealous of me. I have saved and will print off a copy of a leaflet from Infertility Network uk saying what should and shouldn't happen with time off for IVF.

This post has been removed because it contravened our guidelines.

Try not to get too disheartened. I know its easy to say but this woman does not merit your time and energy. Your friend sounds lovely but you need advice from someone who has knowlege of employment issues. This forum is excellent for getting impartial advice as you have probably seen in other threads.
Hey I wouldnt worry too much about the tummy because (hopefully) you will soon have an outrageously huge " bit of a stomach on you"
Have you considered that this person may actually be jealous of you?
If so be kind to her because she is possibly spiritually unwell ???

My age 31!!! Yes, believe me that comment knocked my confidence. Our compoany has uniform allowance whereby we choose clothes from the floor that we would like to wear for uniform, comoany pays 75% and employees pay 25%. I had a green blouse which was approved by senior memebr of staff only for boss to tell me I had to pick something else as the blouse didn't suit me due to me having a bit of a stomach on me. Lets just say my confidence hit the floor. I emailed my friend pronto saying that I'm fat and ugly, meant an interesting conversation after church the next day, yes my pastor is someone I count as being a friend. I'm seeing my friend on Sunday so will ask for his advice on how to word the letter I'm going to put in with my holiday request form for the dates I know I need off. The planned holidays are taking 3 days out of 10/11 days entitlement. Holiday year is 1st April - 31st March. i'm trying to lose the excess off my stomach but won't dye my hair. Am not amemebr of a union so can't go there but believe me if my boss does try to make life awkward for me, I'm confident that my pastor will support me, he did say that if I wanted to make a complaint about the comments about my weight and hair that he'd help me write it. i didn't bother as I had other stuff going on at the same time as well.

Telling you to dye your hair is appalling.You dont indicate your age here but would she say the same thing to a "mature" employee (such as myself ....I call it silver blonde actually )
Is she going to tell you when and how to give birth as well?
As there does not appear to be any definative legislative advice available would you consider discussing this with a union or perhaps the clinic? Im sure the staff there would be in a good position to advise you probably having been aware of this type of problem in the past?