Fire Extinguishers

The short answer is, what does your fire risk assessment say?
Your legal requirement is to assess the hazards and risks at your premises and take appropriate measures to reduce those risks. If you have less than 5 employees you don't have to document your assessment and it's findings (but if something were to happen you'd need to demonstrate you've completed one, so best write it down anyway).
Generally speaking, an assessment for a small charity shop would identify hazards such as electrical causes of ignition and class A materials (clothing furniture etc) as a potential fuel for a fire. Your assessment may therefore recommend that to protect staff and customers and aid escape, fire extinguishers are provided in accordance to the relvent standards (BS5306). Your insurance company may also insist that you have fire extinguishers present to tackle a small fire if possible.
You may be able to assess away the requirement, but bear in mind, should a fire related incident occur, you will need to demonstrate why you removed your fire protection and have your justification stand up in court.

We have two fire extinquishers at a small charity I work for.
They were purchased at a time when the charity was much larger. Periodically we have them replaced and annually have them serviced.
Is it a requirement that we have fire extinquishers in a small office, with 4 part time staff, or could we get rid of them?

Dear Mike

I am reminded of a piece of advice given to me years ago by the local brigade, when carrying fire extinguishers in vehicles was first mooted and I was reviewing the best way forward with the vehicle fleet.
By all means put an extinguisher in the vehicle, but in the boot or as far away from the driver as possible. This will require the driver to get out of the vehicle....and once out, keep walking (or running) in the opposite direction.
The kind of fire extinguishers put in vehicles are not sufficient to put out a vehicle fire and the best way to manage the situation it is to run away and call the experts.

Thanks for your advise, you've opened my eyes .....

You are correct in deducing that the Company providing Fire Warden Training also sell Extinguishers, they also maintain all the Extinguisher we have in 16 of our locations!
Therfore I'm concerned by the fact that they have also told us that all of our delivery vans must carry Extinguishers, we deliver car and van tyres to the trade.
In your opinion do you think I may have been mislead?

Thanks

Mike

I can second Anthony Buck's response, there is no legal requirement to carry a fire extinguisher other than in the vehicle types he mentioned. There are many varying views on using extinguishers to fight vehicle fires and the professionals are loath to give an opinion. Fire and rescue personnel are often instructed not to approach a vehicle fire without breathing apparatus, due to the noxious fumes from the many different materials in car construction these days. And the US specifies CO2 or powder for vehicles, whereas these types are banned for vehicle use in UK. Complete minefield.

Was your fire wardens course provider by any chance from a firm that sells extinguishers?

No requirement in law for extinguishers in vehicles except in specific circumstances detailed in regulations other than the Fire Safety Order:

- Vehicles carrying hazardous goods covered by the ADR regulations (2kg powder to cab & depending on the load may also require a combination of 6/9/12 kilo Powders to the load area)
- Buses, Minibuses or Coaches require a water or foam extinguisher (powder not allowed) in practice either a 1 or 2 litre foam is used
- Taxis may, depending on the licensing requirements of the issuing council may require an extinguisher with different councils recommending different types.

Other than that there are no requirements - HSE guides do recommend certain trade vans to carry one based on what they carry, but company cars do not require an extinguisher. They should however have a travelling first aid kit to meet the Health & Safety (First Aid) Regulations

Good morning,

please can someone clarify whether, as a Company, we need to provide our Company car drivers with a Fire Extinguisher?

Whilst on a Fire Wardens course last week the tutor told me we needed them. I argued that I would prefer my staff to turn off the engine and get the hell out of the way instead of trying to tackle a fire where there is a chance there could be an explosion etc.

All of our vehicles are regularly serviced and maintained.

If we do have to provide one, do I presume that we have to train each of the drivers how to use it?

It's going to cost a small fortune and I see it as an unecessary expence.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mike

Yes:

On installation: Commissioning/Initial Service

Annually +/- 1 month: Basic service- visual inspection, check weigh, replace horn washer, remove pin and refit with new pull seal (Chubb extinguishers pull & break OK pin and replace new, not using a pull seal)

10 years: Overhaul- Cylinder dicharged, disassembled for internal & external inspection, hydraulic pressure tested to approx 800psi, neck stamped with test date, new valve & components fitted, reassembly and recharge. Most workshops will shot blast and repaint the cylinder as part of the Overhaul.

hi, commissioning service when new then general basic service for next 9 years then either replace at ten or have it refurbished depending on your choice and what you think is more cost-effective.
BS5306-3 annex D refers
Regards
Graham (IFEDA)

Canj anyone tell me what tests should be carried out on CO2 extinguishers and at what intervals?

This post has been removed because it contravened our guidelines.

I know that the suppliers our company get them from repaint to red each time as the new valves that get put on are unlikely to line up with the decals on the extinguishers.
If they are old enough that they were black they can remain so as they are NOT BSEN3.

No British Standard for this, just industry practice. Most re-furbishers switched to red from 1st January 2007 to match the BSEN3 requirements for new equipment.

However Chubb, Pyrene & TG (all owned by Williams PLC at that time and sharing refurbishment plants) had a corporate policy that BS5423 CO2 extinguishers refurbished after 1997 would still be painted black by default as they were BS5423 products, not BSEN3 ones. This continued to the late 90's & even early 00's with a proportion of product being black - this decreased due to customer demand for red product (& no doubt to save costs on having to have two separate powder coated lines and two separate stocks of powder coat paint.)

With service exchange being most common (you swap on site for a refurbished CO2 and return the customers to the refurb company as feeder stock) the red product is almost universal, but TG will still do test & fill only upon customer request - so it is possible to send a black CO2 for test, valve and fill only as painting isn't required as part of the BS5306 Overhaul process.

I have come across one firm (which closed last year due to retirement) that was still sending off black customer product for test, valve, fill only. I was shocked when I first visited the site to see all the black extinguishers & suspected 'rag & tag' but on closer examination found they were in test as TG had stamped them, just not painted. All gone now though, serviced exchanged with red ones or replaced new (for the steel bodied and 7lb/10lb non standard size ones)

What is the British standard regarding the colouring of hydraulically tested co2 extinguishers? I'm struggling to find anything about the year they should be painted red from. The job I'm currently working on has hydraulically tested co2's from 2006 done by TG which have the correct date valve but have not been painted so are still black.

Thanks fellas,
I thought it would make more sense to standardise the tagging system to one colour for all for each year. It would save having to remove the extinguisher to try to read the inspection record. I know this may sound petty but I had to check 300 or so yesterday and came home with arms on me like an olympic weight lifter. Thanks again

Hi Anthony,
the number of times I see a tamper tag through a Chubb pin with the Okay disc is unbelievable. Yes the Chubb pins cost a little more to replace than a standard tamper tag but we all know it's not the correct method. As you state the breaking strain is then that of 2 tag systems and untested so EN3 no longer applies. Equally a tamper tag through a broken chubb pin I've found the 'handle' part of the pin breaks before the tamper tag now securing it making the pin very difficult to actually remove at all.
I did write a flyer on how to spot the 'sign and shine brigade' but haven't yet put it in the public domain as I'm sure it would ruffle a few feathers.
If a service company is charging too little there is possibly a good reason and the issue with tag changing is just one example.

As stated there is no universal colour coded tag system, Chubb are a major user of such a system though so it is easy to tell a missed extinguisher. some use dated gauge dots and a single colour tag instead.
Mixed colours can indicate mixed stock, but also not bothering to pull the pin & change the tag.
Too many companies to cut corners and save a few pounds incorrectly place tags on the frangible OK pins used by Chubb and on extinguishers with the Ceo Deux brand cartridge headcap - the pin is the tag and an extra tag means the extinguisher no longer meets EN3 as the pin is no longer easily removable and requires excess force. Reusing broken OK pins with a tag is equally bad.

As far as I'm aware it's up to the individual fire extinguisher company what colour tags they are intending to use. I don't believe there's a 'the colour for this years tags must be...' specification anywhere.
We have a policy of ensuring all tags are the same colour at each premises and each year we change them (this year we're using green). By keeping all the tags the same colour it makes it easier for the end user to spot units that may have missed from this years service schedule.
I have been to a number of sites where the coloured OK indicator discs or tamper tags are all different. Whilst it may mean the extinguisher company simply uses whatever tags they have, it could it mean they haven't actually removed the pins as part of the service.

Great site, very informative.
Quick question(s).
In relation to the tagging of extinguishers, is there anywhere that I can get a list of which tags refer to which years and what colour are they using this year. Also does every company that inspects the extinguishers use the same coloured tags for each year?

Ah okay, I didn't actually get the details from Britannia, was told a competent person needs to check and weigh them by FSE.
That does actually make them seem quite competitive at £100-£130 a unit but no annual service charge. For large clients, 70+ extinguishers our total cost of ownership over he 10 years would still be more cost effective but I will have to keep my eye on these then I think.

Morning Brett, if I owned an end user company i would train somebody internally but how do you describe a competent person? The term we know and love is to be found in 5306-3 with all his/her training requirments to be found in annex A: but surely a 3/4 day initial training course will be way over the top for units that have no maintenance schedule?
A further consequence of wholesale adoption of these units will not only be no requirement for a servicing engineer but there will be no requirement for BAFE SP101/ST104 including the fact there will be no-one to subscribe to it in the first place.

Ah - I've just looked them up myself - double gauge to overcome the need for gauge testing, corrosion & UV resistant body, factory sealed to give the 10 year service interval.
Both the manufacturer's own printed literature as well as it's distributors states that they are maintenance free other than user visual checks and would come under the disposable extinguisher clause of BS5306-3 which is do nothing except condemn at expiry. After all you are describing a basic Service and the whole point is these don't need it - the dual gauge replaces the gauge test - they've added the word competent to cover their backside, but then go onto say that a check is competent if it follows the printed instructions on the side!
As long as a user demonstrates they are doing their checks then they would be Fire Safety Order compliant and only a test case will prove otherwise

Well, I've just spoken to the guys at fire safety systems. They said these units are manufactured somewhere in Norfolk, which leads me to Britannia and their latest creation, the Fireworld unit.
The manufacturer says they do require an annual check by a competent person which I assume will involve weighing the units, checking the gauge for correct operation, changing the tamper tag and a visual inspection of the unit itself for signs of damage or corrosion. so the only change to a basic annual service is the lack of an o-ring change in the hose and possibly a gauge sticker.
They also only require a discharge test once every 10 years, as opposed to the normal 5 for a powder unit, which may cut coss a little.
They sound like a well made unit and Britannia are a respected UK manufacturer. I'm not sure the savings will be made by the end user that they believe. A competent person still needs to check them once a year, so do you pay an engineer to come in, or pay to train someone internally to be considerd competent?
I believe there's also discussion that the recommended discharge tests for dry powder units are increased to once every 10 years, as opposed to the current 5 years, if that happens then these units will not be any different to a standard one.

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Kidde Safety Europe (the division doing residential fire safety stuff) on some of their POS packaging for extinguishers state they are maintenance free - however they are standard Gloria ABC Powder extinguishers which are refillable and most definitely (if in a location subject to the Fire Safety Order or ADR) will require annual Basic & 5 yearly Extended services.

No gauged or refillable extinguisher is maintenance free, despite being sold to the public as such. The only truly maintenance free extinguishers are the disposable aerosols which must be binned after use or at 5 years because there is nothing to service and they cannot be filled (even these have user checks such as checking the seal and putting on scales).

It's very confusing marketing and a few small businesses have been stung after buying extinguishers from retail outlets as 'maintenance free' only to face an agreed action plan/notice because they are serviceable types and require servicing!

For the small business small risk if you can risk assess the suitability of a small ABC or BC Powder or ABF Foam aerosol it's the most cost effective option as even buying a new extinguisher every 5 years is far cheaper than the annual service costs of a refillable (that can be virtually the same as buying new every year!)