Fire Extinguisher check

All Fire Estinguishing Appliances (known as FEAs); extinguishers, hosereels, sprinklers, blankets etc should be inspected/tested by a competent person from an established organisation that has the capacity and facilities to undertake such important work on an annual basis. All items should be "badged/branded" to this effect with the month of test and the month of the next testing. I.E. 07/2010 (tested); 07/11 (next due).

A nominated person should "walk the site" on a weekly basis to check that al portable FEAs are in order; especually extinguishers and blankets. This three-way check should ensure that (i) the item(s) are in their intended positions and not moved elsewhere from their "position notice(s)" (ii) there are no signs of tampering & (iii) there is no dampness or corrosion on the casing of extinguishers; especially at the bottom. In cases (ii) & (iii) this will clearly demonstrate that these items are at risk and; as such, may not be fit for purpose and should be withdrawn from service immediately. An astute FM will ensure that there are "spares" available; either in-house (obviously included in the annual inspection/test cycle) to replace defective items that should be repaired/re-filled or replaced by theorganisation that undertakes this activity. If the employers policy is not to hold spares "in-house" then s/he should have the facility to contact that organisation to immediately replace and remove the defective item(s).

It should also be understood by all employees that it is an offence under H & S laws to tamper with and/or innapropriatly remove any FEA. The weekly three-way check is devised to identify any such innapropriate action.

John P. Graham
London NW3

I don't know what company you are using, but their technical knowledge seems lacking as they want to replace everything, including risk specific extinguishers with water.

They refer to a standard that doesn't exist any more (& has been superseded twice) as well.

I would bet that most of your existing extinguishers mentioned have come up to 5 years old (or 5 years since last extended service) and they are wanting to put new in rather than carry out an extended service (quicker and more profitable for them)

A plant room doesn't need a powder as no-one in your type of premises is going to try and tackle a flammable gas fire - CO2 would be better.

I'd just rip that advice up & start again with a more reliable company.

I am oftern dismayed at the tactics some companies take to make as much profit they can from customers, however do not tar all companies with the same brush. I have my own company and routinely take out excessive amounts of extinguishers that have been put in by unscrupulous companies trying to make a killing. I can say if we are advising a customer to make any changes we will go through it with the customer onsite and explain the rational in most cases, but we only do so when we need to and not because we need to make some more money. But will always leave it up to the company to make their own mind up.

Its a shame too many companies pay their engineers on commission or bonus only that drives them to sell more otherwise they dont get paid.

However with regards to British Standards the RRO is far to open, so British standards do give some very clear guidelines for both the customer and servicing customers to adhere to. As recommended a Fire Risk Assessment would identify what extinguishers are required and where and this should be in place for Mark Dixon to ideally rely on.

I can say that Graham Ferris from IFEDA a trade association strongly recommends a good code of conduct for companies under this association, however it is still up to each company what they do.

With regards to commissioning service, I have attended numerous sites and customers have bought off the internet, purchasing the wrong extinguishers, placing them in the wrong locations, leaving them very vulnerable from procsecution and insurancese being invalid, so I do think they are important.

Just remember there are good companies out there that do care about doing it right at a right price

There is a huge mark up within the extinguisher trade as most units start at at around £8 to £10 on import prices. The industry has it own associations and most sit on the BS committees covering the trade and therefore they dictate the British Standards to suit. If they detect a loophole, like being able to buy perfectly good, ready for use replacement extinguishers wholesale for £20 to £30, rather £75 to £80 for exactly the same item from one of their trade association members, or £40 to £50 for them to do a full service, they introduce new standards, like 'commissioning' by a competent person in an attempt to kerb that market. If a manufacturer sells an extinguisher not ready for use and not fully functional for its use, they risk being prosecuted under the Sale of Goods Act and possibly prosecuted under Section 6 of the HASAWA 1974, so why do we need 'commissioning' particularly if it is a like for like replacement and the risk assesment has already been done? Anyway, British Standards are just that, standards, they do not set what is legally required and from experience don't carry a lot of weight in court decisions.

I had a similar issue were replaceents to AAAF was recommended when water extinguishers require replacement or at 5 years lifespan. But the Southwark Fire Authority Inspector dismissed the reasoning of electrical fires better suited to the less conductive appliance than of water a moot point. The Inspector said if electrical equipment is on fire and the power isolated, then it is no longer an electrical fire and water dries out potentially saving the equipment for refurbishment.

Water in the cafe alone seems too little, but then I don't know what fryers or equipment you have. A fire blanket may be useful as a point where I've witnessed a microwave fire produced by a jacket potato. The scenario was if the potato is wrapped in tin foil to make it cook faster in the microwave(!) put it on full for 20 minutes as they take 30 minutes at home in an ordinary oven, and wrap the potato in paper so the microwave won't recognise the foil!!! This was a university graduate so you can see intelligence is no use over that of common sense.

Regarding the cost of replacing 'condemned' equipment, companies I would recommend - second the findings with Elite or FireUK or Vigilaris - if you are in the Black Country search for Alan Rotchell. I don't recommend large companies that sell all the equipment, I won't name but the type like what kwik fit is to cars or Chubb is to locks and safes (try getting hold of them timely).

Hi Mark

Why don't you check the findings with your local Fire Brigade? Every now and then our local Fire Brigade come round, examine the place from top to bottom and they give us feed back if there are issues they are concerned about.

If you have used your specialist before for your last check, I would seriously query why they have suddenly decided to make so many changes?

Mark,

I would seriously query the suggested replacement of a wet chemical extinguisher for a water extinguisher in the kitchen.

If any cooking is undertaken, especially with fat fryers, then wet chemical is the right medium in the kitchen and water is totally inappropriate and actually dangerous for use on fat fires.

The previous 2 comments have also properly covered a number of technical points and you may want to get more than 1 second opinion before proceeding any further with the suggested replacements. (In any case, there are smaller 3 litre foam based units now available which have the same extinguishing capability as the large heavy 9 litre water units. Much better for general workplace use as they are lighter and easier to handle)

Best wishes

Mark,
I think that you may need to ask some questions about the issues raised by the contractor and I would suggest the following:

1. Why are they suggesting changing to water from foam and remember Graham's point about the weight this may be why they were put there in the first place or that they were more appropriate for the risk.
2. Does your Fire Risk Assessment (FRA) concur with the findings?
3. For what reasons are the extinguishers condemned?

You may wish to look at your FRA again and get a couple of additional quotes.

Regards Alan

For a start BS5306-3, the commissioning and maintenance of portable fire extinguishers - code of practice (having previously been updated in 2003, so the reference to a 2000 date is a little questionable) is now updated to 2009 It is up to you if you want to change from foam to water but though (usually) slightly dearer foam gives the user a cooling curtain of foam (think of a washing up bowl full of soap suds and how cool the suds are compareed to the water underneath) and a 6L foam is obviously easier to carry for staff who may find a 9L water rather cumbersome.
Brett may like comment on the rest of your email re requirements and prices?

Hi
I've recieved this following letter:
We refer to our recent site visit by our specialists to carry our routine PPM to the Fire equipment and Fire Extinguishers installed within the above premises. They have recommended that the following issues be addressed in accordance with BS5306:3 2000 for the site.

Ground floor Crescent Suite 2 - Service exchange 9 litre Foam for 9 litre Water, safe disposal, test and ID sign.
Ground floor reception area - Service exchange 2 x 9 litre Foam for 9 litre Water, safe disposal, test and ID sign.
Ground floor kitchen - Service exchange 6 litre Wet Chem for 9 litre Water, safe disposal, test and ID sign.
Ground floor Café area – 9 litre foam condemned, service exchange for 9 litre water, safe disposal, test and ID
1st floor area Self Help Office - 9 litre foam condemned, service exchange for 9 litre water, safe disposal, test and ID

Additional recommendations

Plant room – 1 x 6kg Dry powder, wall mount and ID
Crescent Suite – 1 x 2kg Co2
Bernados kitchen – 1 x 1.2 m Fire Blanket, wall mount and ID
Anxiety Corridor – 1 x 2kg Co2, wall mount and ID
Anxiety Corridor – 1 x 9 litre Water, wall mount and ID

Coould somebody please explain what BS5306:3 refers to and also whether I need to change all our foam extinguishers to water?
At a cost of £803.00, i'm finding it a little hard to swallow

Picking up on a few of the points above:- BS5306 part 3 2009 has just been published. As per the old version is does NOT say that any extinguisher over X years old has to be scrapped - there is no reason to scrap an extinguisher if the manufacturer still makes the replacement parts unless the extinguisher falls within a certain class e.g. rivetted seams, not made of metal etc. I have even seen comments on reputable websites that an extinguisher over 20 years old should be replaced - nonsense! If it is fit for service (as Mike has stated above) there is no reason to replace.
Re plastic - in the new standard plastic head caps have to be replaced at the extended service or before if you see any degredation i.e. the head cap being the part that is under pressure and could blow. This rule does not apply to the handle etc as quoted above. I was recently looking at a Total 2kg powder with a plastic cover over the head for cosmetic purposes - the head beneath is metal. Would the servicing company mentioned above have condemned this perfectly good extinguisher? If they would they are having a laugh.
Like everything in life you get what you pay for and personally I would rather have the £85 model on my premises than the £22.50 one mentioned above - will it work when you need it?
Finally with regards to non-red extinguishers - on the market it is possible to buy stainless steel units that are coloured 'steel' or you can request different colours to go with your office colour scheme (so i beleive), now being steel this is obbviously a superior product that could last for years and years and years - company above would take them out! again this is nonsense the only requirement with non-standard coloured extinguishers such as the stainless steel is to tell the customer they must alert their insurance company to the fact the units are not 'standard' because some insurance companies will insist on kite marked BS EN 3 units only and if they are unaware of the units they might not pay out in the event of an incident. But as I mentioned earlier the steel units are generally of such high quality there is no problem.

I would agree with Mike Kane on all the points above. The older extinguishers are still allowed providing they are serviced and pass the test. However, like in any industry you will get varying levels of service and would advise from past experience that a significant number of companies would write the old extinguisher off.

It can be difficult to argue with their decision as they are the competent person (or should be) and they will always error on the side of caution especially in showing due dilligence. However, it would be naïve to think sales don't play apart in this.

Chosing the extinguisher and company needs very careful consideration and price can be a hurdle to over come.

Gnereally the Fire Service will except servicing records providing they are up to date

Andy O
info@firesafetyoa.co.uk

Just because a unit is pre- BS EN 3, if it is still servicable then there is no legal requirement to replace it on design criteria alone.

You say the Fire Service are happy, then do nothing. The Fire Service are the enforcing authority for the Legislation and therefore they have the final say, not some extinguisher salesman.

Too many fire extinguisher companies are driven by sales alone and therefore individuals will advise you that you "have to change" for any number of spurious reasons, but mainly to boost their own commission.

On the other hand, £85 for an extinguisher is not actually a rip off. Those at £22.50 are probably not be up to snuff and anyway, many internet companies charge another large fee for shipping.

Beware buying on the internet unless you are experienced and competent in what you require. You may buy a pig in a poke.

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

wew have just had our extinguishers serviced and they have 'scrapped' 17 of them because they are solid in colour, not red with the relevant coloured areas, and have quoted BS 7863 and BS EN 3 as the reason. However, my reading of this is that if they are still servicable, then they can still be used. The Fire brigade agree with this. another reason is that the handle and nozzle assembly that screws to the canister is made of plastic, and as such has to be scrapped. I cannot find anything on this and the fire brigade or also in the dark on this one. Any more info greatly appreciated as at £85 per replacement is a rip off as I can get them eleswhere for £22.50. .

Good point highlighted about the commissioning service - note also that this initial service is to take place where the extinguisher is to be fitted i.e. after it has been unpacked and removed from its transit material. It cannot be unpacked at some distant depot/factory and then taken to its place of use.

“BS 5306-3:2009 Fire extinguishing installations and equipment on premises. Commissioning and maintenance of portable fire extinguishers” has just been published. This replaces BS5306-3:2003. Please note the change of title. It now contains the word “Commissioning”. All newly installed extinguishers should be “Commissioned” by a competent person. This was designed to combat a trend for users, now “Responsible Persons”, buying cheep extinguishers from general wholesalers, catalogues and the web with the worrying result that many extinguisher installations are insufficient, inappropriate, ineffective or dangerous.

Please Note: The British Standard for the Installation and Servicing is being reviewed at this time. Public Consultation is closed (before most found out about it) but write in with your input. The revised standard is in draft, but due to be published mid to late 2008.

It may require 3-year updates for all "Competent Persons" and some clarification regarding the practice of Mail Order, to ensure on site commissioning (could be damaged in transit).

I have asked them to clarify; filling, installing and commissioning.

I believe that all portable fire extinguishers should be subjected to annual maintenance.This should be carried out by contractors.However,all fire extinguishers should be checked on a weekly basis.

Whatever training courses the fitters have been on, the work is primarily one of dedication, thoroughness and practical skills. Fire extinguishers are fairly simple bits of kit, they suffer from corrosion, dirt blocking the working parts, impact damage and abuse. If the operatives have been trained and show those skills and dedication, then they are "competent". Much of it comes down to supervision. If you find that when you open up a water type extinguisher that has been serviced and find rust, a gas cylinder in poor shape, the handle mechanism stiff and inadequate to pierce the cartridge, the safety pin jammed tight or the hose perished, then the "service" wasn't competent. That is part of management.

Regarding fire extinguisher checks, the engineers that check mine are trained by the British Fire Consortium to the QSP94001 standard. Is this good enough?

Thanks

Duncan Varney

Director of a fulfillment warehouse

Phil,

As Tina Zenthon comments in the forum, British Standard BS5306 Part 3 2000 recommends that all portable fire extinguishers are subjected to an annual maintenance inspection and service, by a competent person. In case you missed Tina's response, please see:

http://www.workplacelaw.net/forum/thread.php?thread_id=36

You should also consider using a company registered by the British Approvals for Fire Equipment (BAFE). tel. 0181 541 1950, e-mail http://www.bafe.org.uk

Regards

Ciaron Dunne, Editor

Could you please advise me how often a fire extinguisher should be checked by a competent person? The company that I deal with at present is stating that they should be checked every six months. I believe this to be an overkill and was looking at extending the time from 12 months to 18 months and maybe then to 24 months as there have been no problems identified at inspection. When an extinguisher has been discharged accidentally, it is replaced immediately and the used one brought back into service at the earliest opportunity. Many thanks.