Increased tribunal compensation limits to come into force

Naa, not stress just passionate about apathy, deniability and feedback-blindness where those who do know or should have known that they are managing an increasingly sick workplace are prepared to actively omit to do anything.

Knowingly omitting to doing something must actually make them feel a little inadiquate, to say the least, thereby contributing their own levels stress so there is no one immune to the stressors just a question of timing and last man standing.........

sounds like someone should be going off with stress soon..methinks

Perhaps House of Lords have the answer ?

Lords’ ruling confirms burden of proof lies with employers 10/12/2008

'The House of Lords has ruled that in safety cases involving an injury the prosecution is under no duty to identify and prove specific acts or omissions, but the defence must show that it has managed the risk so far as is reasonably practicable. ' (Safety & Health Prtactitioner IOSH 12/12/08)

Stressors and coercive cultures are both 'foreseeable' and without compliance with "reasonably practicable" mitigative interventions there are still too few who will have the courage to stick their neck out when they are well aware of that happens to those perceived as "off message".

Ethics, duty of care, integrity and principles not worth so much when sitting at home popping ant-acids and happy pills unemployed with a record of stress related illhealth - got to be pretty tough and resilient to escape the collateral damage of being crushed by the systemic failure and friendly fire of omission to give a tinkers toot about human resources - just cost/benefit asset management, nothing personal.

All,
Stress does exist it is tangeable and can be an horrendous condition to suffer. As a manager I recgonise the symptoms in myself and hopefully in my team before it gets to a point where it becomes a real issue.

We do this by having regular chats over coffee etc and not just about the job but also home life and as a man with an all female team this can be an interesting experience for me.

However, I also have a local doctor who signs staff off for two months at a time for Stress probably caused by work, he does not refer the staff member to a counsellor, pescribe medication or want to see them in-between sick notes.

As a company we have offered independant counselling (funded by the business) and a second opinion by a company doctor with an aim to helping our staff member get back on her feet and the obvious selfish reasons to come back to work.

They have declined all this help from the company and have even accused us of harrassment by ringing them every two weeks to see if they are ok (different collegues including their union rep).

So what assessment should I make? I have a staff member who refuses help when offered, a doctor who doesn't care and a business to run.

I believe Marie Claire's disucssion was an open view on an open forum. It is very difficult to seperate the chancers from the geniune cases and its definitly not helped by profesionals who sign people off for two moths at a time without refferal.

However the replies I have read here attacking her post has been an eye opener also. Correcting people's opinions by providing information and advice is what this forum is for. Personal opinions and character attacks should be left in the trash can where they belong.

Regards and Merry xmas
Huw

The point is that Marie Claire said she was not talking about genuine cases - but at no point did she explain how she would tell the difference between a genuine case and someone swinging the lead.
The person who decides is surely the Doctor - so why is she going on about sick-notes from Doctors? If she cannot accept a professional knows their job then what would she accept to prove it was genuine?
However, she is not reading this, and there is not much point in continuing the thread.

Marie Claire had, after her initial posts, made it clear that she was talking about those people, usually the minority, who misuse or abuse the system to the detriment of the majority. There are those who see every case as genuine and others who see them all as false. Nigels last post gives an excellent overview of the situation and Jacqui's comments are very valid too. It is a shame that MC, possibly suffering from verbally induced stress, has decided to go.
I must say in all sincerity that it's a pity that we don't have more people like Jean around doing an excellent job as an interface between management and staff. Let's hope, going back to the thread starter, that the increased levels of compensation go to the genuine cases and not the non-genuine ones usually picked up bythe media and alluded to by Marie Claire..
Have a great Christmas and a hopefully prosperous and happy 2009!

Sorry that Marie Claire could not stand to be told, she was the one that made assumptions, but there we have it and I as a Union steward make no apology for looking after those who suffer at the hands of bullies or bad management practise.
Hey ho
All have a good Xmas
annea

Oooh what a shame, freedom of speach is dead long live .....

All stressed out and becoming distressed as adaptive exhausted presents in irasible behaviours with little or no "Positive Regard for ALL" regardless of their contribution "non-judgmental" or otherwise.

I for one put it down to stress where system overload results in anxiety impairing the abilitiy to recognise the difference between real or imagined 'threat' , the difference between difference of opinion, discussion, banter, teasing and/or spiky, sharp or snide comments.

Lets 'play nice' as people clearly feeling bullied, unhappy and getting hurt ...

Mary Poppins remains, to the best of my knowledge, the only one who is 'practically perfect' and there will always be those who choose to cry wolf but that does not mean we should return to the 'ducking stool' to prove guilt or innocence of everyone else who genuinely manifest work related illhealth.

Equally it does not mean that there should not be improved or more objective risk assessments where solely reliant upon subjective reporting nor that subjective reporting of individuals experience is not real to them if they are becoming ill as a result of environmental or cultural stressors.

Research may be slow to catch up with evaluating less tangible affects of stressors yet in time will provide sufficient empirical evidence to develop reasonably practicable risk assessments and further refine defined existing recognised subjective stress management standards and mitigators.

In the mean time without people playing 'devils advocate' on both sides no one would benefit from raising awareness sufficiently for others to research the subject and introduce "change" - some would say not always for the better but there you go.

Have a good day and may your God go with you..

ooops.......if the cap fits......

well, ok, lets release all the people in jail who say they are innocent, lets not have two sides to any story, let us say all things are one sided and all go round with blinkers on and snap the heads off anyone who dares to question it then shall we? You are making out that everyone who puts in a claim for anything must be entitled to it. The whole world is 100% honest and innocent. Well, hurrah, how much do you pay for a house on your planet? Dont bother replying because I am unsubscribing right now because you are a vicious and nasty bunch of people who cannot see two sides of life.

Marie Claire and John Malty you deserve all the comments that you have been given. You both show lack of respect for others in a big way. What gives you Marie Claire the right or insight into what Drs put on the sick note. The pts goes to the Dr and usually pours their heart out and the Dr has to put stress due to work if the pt tells them.
It is then the employer under the policies which should be in place to investigate why they are stressed. They should refer them to the Occi health dept who will investigate further and then give their findings to the management.
If that person through stress at work has to leave they are entitled to take the case to the tribunal for injury at work if it is indeed the employers fault usually
just because they could not be bothered to take any action against the perpetrator's. Some thought needed before chipping into any discussions here I think on stress at work especially if you don't represent anyone who is going through it or supporting some one.

Hi, I have been reading all your comments on both this topic and the topic of bullying on the other page(which do kind of cross over).

In terms of taking things personally, as we do not know one another personally, we can only be judged by, and held accountable for, our last comments.

I have been both a people manager and a victim of bullying myself (in different roles). In terms of management, however, I feel it takes a very skilled, perceptive manager, to recognise (and actually care about) the stress levels of their employees. Many genuinely stressed employees will not speak out for fear of people thinking they're not up to the job. Unfortunately, many managers tend to go down the disciplinary route, before all other options are explored, whether by choice/lack of management training/company culture.

In my experience, most workplace stress comes from poor 'people management' (which includes bullying). I do acknowlege that there are 1 or 2 individuals who will get away with what they can (I have had to manage 1 or 2 myself), but a good manager will deal these cases entirely separately. Don't get me wrong - this isn't about me and that I was the worlds best manager - I wasn't!!

I worked in a very big organisation and was absolutely shocked by the 'old school' style of management. Good sales performers were promoted to managing teams of 12 or more!! Doesn't selling and managing people require a different set of skills?? Needless to say, this is where the bullying happened....

Jennifer - sad as it is you are not alone but please try to hang in there I am sure things will improve. The most importand thing is that you made the right decision for you. Perhaps you could now use this time to upgrade your skills by whatever mode you can that wont cost anything so that when the time is right you can take advantage. I believe in fate and perhaps this may also be a time to change direction and get involved in something new. You would be surprised how many other skills you will find you have. Good Luck!

Nigel - I just LOVE reading your posts!!!!

Carole, this is a prime example of you not reading or understanding my comments properly. I, at no time did I ever say that I was in HR. I am not and never would be. I was not looking for a fight, I wanted views or ideas, THATS ALL. Everyone seems to be taking this personally, I wouldnt dream of commenting in such an aggressive way about your personal issues. I have no knowledge of your plights and no right to comment on your personal circumstances, I am not critisising anyone else on their circumstances and wish well to all those with a genuine case, I am not talking about GENUINE CASES, hello there, I am talking about the OTHERS, the bandwagoners. Anyway, I have learnt that I am not going to get a non-biased view on this (John Maltby aside, and I am not sure about one or two others, are they being sarcastic or GENUINE, ha ha), so I think it is best left there

Oh dear, stress will remain one of those foreseeable risks so long as it continues to be remain a "subjective issue" as until it can be objectively measured when reasonably practicable prevention, working conditions and/or spycho-social mitigators, will have to be adopted.

It's alright, as there are those out there who are working on developing an "objective" range of 'occupational risk assessments' for a number of common work/life stressors like display screen equipment in addition to 'subjective' self-assessments to raise self-awareness.

In the mean time following recent judgments the individual no longer has to suffer a history of stress presenting in or resulting in a first breakdown but, may react proactively to stressors / demands by reporting them as they become excessive prior to the individuals coping strategies overloading their physiological adaptive capacities and becoming ill.

In fact doing nothing and trying to dig-in and carry on regardless will be seen as contributory neglegence by the courts should it result in harm or injury over time.

Resilience against stressors, fear and coercion or bullying is impaired over time if not addressed to the point where ill-health is inevitable and the individuals capacity to cope or deal with the stressor deminishes significantly increasing risk of more serious and long lasting harm or injury.

So until more 'objective' measures are available the individual will remain responsible for subjectively reporting excessive occupational demand !!!!

OK Marie Claire - get the Gov to pass the law to revert the SSP system back to the one they had in force before, then all the genuinely sick people will have yo lose out completely on anything resemebling their former salary right from Day 1. Will save everyone thousands of pounds. And put the lead-swingers off.

By the way - if you happen to find yourself unemployed (as I am at the mo having given up the hassle, I couldn't hack it any more) (but apparently I'm not ill any more either) But I can't claim benefit. And if I can't claim benefit I can't get access to any advice to find something I can do - or can re-train to do! I am not allowed to even pay for the gap I'm building up in my contribution record until after the end of the current tax year, when my savings will no doubt have run out. Shame isn't it? After I have worked solidly since July 1966 when I left school without any breaks for babies and such other luxuries as others could apparently afford.

Maybe I was even in a position where I could have gone to a tribunal - I seriously have no idea - I certainly didn't want any MORE stress!

I don't want anyone's pity or anything - I've always solved my own problems, that's what I was brought up to do. However that does leave one in the position where one doesn't have the slightest idea what to do when one can't do it ALONE. I could just do with a couple of nudges in the right direction now I ain't prepared to risk my mental health any more by doing the only job I have ever been trained to do!

Marie Claire - I give up - I did not give you a good idea, I do not have an open mind and therefore do not have the proper understanding of a real human being..........

How long did you say you had worked in HR for???.......Hmmmm

I really do appreciate the helpful comments that have been posted. I do appreciate that there are very genuine cases of stress at work. I have worked since I was 17 years old and am now 44. I have seen and heard a lot of things and I am not blind to genuine reasons for sickness and absence from work. I am purely talking about the non genuine cases. These cases, as in the non genuine claimants for insurance etc., cost this country a fortune, and no-one can tell me that every insurance claim for theft, breakage or injury is genuine. The same applies to the subject we are talking about. I think that I have made is more than clear, I am not tarring everyone with the same brush, I am far more open minded than that. It is the same as saying that every criminal that pleads innocence, is innocent. Those of you who say that I am angry, I think that maybe you should be reading your responses to me. You will find a lot of anger in there. Yes, I do think that this system of sending patients to a Regional Medical Officer should be brought back in, it may cost a lot in the first instance, but it would save a fortune in the long run, what a brilliant idea. This is the sort of response I was looking for and asking about. Good ideas, people with open minds and suggestions and proper understanding of real human beings. Thank you to those with open minds,

Stress does not happen overnight . Years of bullying take their toll and eventually you break down. I was off with stress for 11 months, I did not take my case to a tribunal as I could not face the anxiety and as the Union solicitors work on a no win no fee basis they are not interested in complex cases. Some days I contemplated suicide rather than going to work. My manager has got away with years off bullying. The grievance that I made against him was not upheld or the appeal, which is what I expected as both were heard by senior managers of my employer. The old boy network survives to this day.

I am back at work now but I am given all the jobs that others do not want to do and I am sent to different areas to make life difficult for me, as I am working under the same manger that bullied me for years. I would have liked to have taken my boss to a tribunal to teach him a lesson and make life better for other employees but as usual he has got away with it.

Perhaps if employers treated employees better they would not be off with stress. Greed and not survival or reasonable profits seems to be the god of the employer today. The greed for greater and greater profit is more emportant than the employees health today. This has been evident in the present financial crisis. Likewise you can only push people so far before they breakdown.

Thank you Craig, very well thought out answer.

And Marie Claire, re-read what you have written, it does come across as someone trying to win a fight, or start one.

Unfortunately there are vast differences in how employers treat their staff, for instance some work with union representatives in an attempt to have a smooth running happy workforce, whilst some employers would have secret meetings with managers to 'remove' someone that has so much as mentioned a union.

And there are many employees that abuse any benefits they have, to the detriment of others who are genuine.

You'll never get perfection, (who said that perfection is imperfect?)

Well - I will apologise Marie Claire but you hadn't qualified what you said????

As one who has fallen victim to stress more than once I would say I'd love to have some of these peeps doctors - cos I've never found such a one!

Perhaps it's time to ask questions about the docs rather than the patients? I mean I've heard this kind of comment before elsewhere - it's having the basic nous to sort out the dodgers from the genuine cases - however they have to make a fairly instant judgment, GP appts allowing about 10 minutes - so maybe the sick note for just a week says it all? - mine were all for a month at a time!

A million years ago before Statutory Sick Pay when one claimed benefit immediately, (Min of Pens & Nat Ins) there were 2 conditions docs used to put on sick notes - Ergophobia and Plumbumitis (morbid fear of work and lead swinging!) that required immediate control - the claimant got the letter saying their case would be ref'd to the Regional Medical Officer within their 3 'waiting days' - and 99.9% of em had a miraculous recovery and went back to work! LOL

Unfortunately we don't have that safety net any more! - no cos it's employers who have to pay the ££££ it costs to have peeps off 'sick' - not the Government any more. Have we actually moved on at all since 1966 when I left school and worked for MPNI?

Discuss!

What is STRESS ?

It is the survival process by which we build resilience to physical and / or mental/emotional demand and just like selecting whether to use light or heavy weights in the gym to build stamina or muscle for endurance or sprint events it is the rest period between strain events that repairs or restores damage.

Known as GAS (General Adaptation Syndrome) it has three coping stages

1. Alarm = Escape: This removes the individual fro the stressor environment. More frequently, this is an effective decision rather than a chemical or structural change. Death may be an extreme but inadvertant result of adaptive exhaustion and is the ultimate escape, intended or not.

2. Tolerance: if either chosen or denied escape (captive in work/education) the individual 'digs-in' and tries to withstand stressor. Performance is compromised thereby prolonging the stressor and gradually over time sustained levels of fatigue results in exhaustion. Distress impairs auto-immune system (due in part to thymus & lymph gland changes) and if ignored will end in disease. However, under optimum conditions, adaptive changes are initiated, the third stage of coping response.

3. Adaptation: Structural or chemical changes allow some mitigation of distress increasing or reseting the alarm trigger to stressor stimulus. Unfortunately, successful adaptive change reducing signs of distress may encourage the individual to carry on making further change necessary.

Coping and adaptation is the organism's well-intentioned attempt to escape from stressor agent or environment and by the time adaptive exhaustion sets in the decline in their emotional and/or physical well-being will be significantly affecting their performance and 'presenteeism' may be the least of the employers concerns as the individual will be off long term sick if duty of care has not been addressed by a positive solution focused pastoral culture.

A degree of "intermittent stress" or strain is good so long as it supports fitness to perform better but, you ignore the warning signs of chronic fatigue and exhaustion at your peril...............................

This post has been removed because it contravened our guidelines.

John I am not going to bother commenting on any of your text as I view it in the same way as I did the previous thread you mention here on bullying. What I will say is perhaps you should be wondering why you attracted the response that you did then and as you admit still are and will probably do again now having written this post.

Marie Claire - I do not believe you were asking for any advice at all on the subject or other peoples opinions when you opened this debate. You simply waded in with a very opinionated and accusing view which was responded to by a very well thought out and useful response by Craig which, not only did you ignore but you once again came back with another angry rant of your opinions. Now you admit this is based on one case based on somebody who has angered you. Are you therefore going to tar everyone with the same brush because of this one case? We all know that people pretend to be sick on a Monday or Friday in order to get long week-ends or tag days on the end of AL; this has been going on for years. As for calling it work place stress in almost epidemic proportions as you are eluding – I don’t think so. There may well be increased numbers of workplace “stress” cases which end up in tribunals, but as I said I doubt very much they have rushed into that situation for the cash!

You know nothing about what I know about the subject either personally or professionally and I don’t intend to get into that here other than to say that I know enough to be able to comment.

Marie-Claire, contrary to the other parties, Can I thank you for your comments which I totally understand and agree with what you are trying to say.

Unfortunately, as you will have noticed from the other sarcastic vindictive and i'm holier than thou replys, you must be the She Devil herself to think in that way and you have to be told in no uncertain terms that their do-gooder and softly softly ways is the only way to go, the employer must give give give and the employee takes, takes takes, supported by the heavy handedness of the unions or else!!

Sadly those most in need end up loosing out to those wanting to get something for nothing and to get rich quick thanks to the above held attitudes and tribunals.

I would hope you receive more supportive comments from others but I wouldn't hold my breath, I had the audacity to respond to a particular thread over 6 months ago and am still receiving patronising comments.

Good Luck and thanks again.