How good are evac chairs?

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Believe me these are very good pieces of kit if you are made familiar with them. and a very good evac chair on the market is Evacurite and I'm not a salesperson.

Having just come across this site and topic, it is interesting to read. Most peope are only aware of the normal type of evacuation chairs, generally known as Skid chairs and base the above opinions on balance, weight, manual handling, training and the transfer issue of people who are non transferable on these chairs.
Is it fair to say that all evacuation chairs apart from the Evac Trac CD7, you could frow a blanket over them and they are all very very simular and suffer the same problems.
Regarding people who can't transfer, Powered units such as the Stair Mate, Super Trac allow evacuation of wheelchair users without transfering the user, for both upward and downward evacuation. For larger organisations it is vital that an across the board solution with uniform operation is a must, one size does not fit all.
The major issue of lack of use is now not the main problem in the market place, evacuation and access when lifts breakdown is.
Although a lift breakdown is not a fire emergency for an organisation, it is still an emergency for a wheelchair user, that coupled with a vast increase in varieties of powered and non powered chairs means that organisations are switching to powere units such as the Super Trac. Any organiseation that is open to the public has to realise that, in, out, up, down, the organisation has to be prepared.
Remember it does not matter how many evacuation chairs an organisation has, if people won't get in them, use them or can't use them, then they will always be a waste of money.

Thanks.
Greg

Evac chairs are fine for low rise or average weight personnel. The changes within the Regulatory Reform(fireSafety) Order 2005 brought forward the use of lifts in the evacuation of mobility impaired personnel. Most lifts can be used, subject to a couple of basic criteria, the process should be part of an established and practiced evacuation plan. Guidance can be obtained by following the link www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/322721.pdf the relevant section is article 4(b) measures for managing escape.

Interesting discussion this. I work for a local authority education service. Post compulsory education that is, adult learning, not schools.

Our service delivers courses borough wide and in many cases the venues where courses are delivered are not within local authority control and many of them that do have a first, second floor etc do not have Evac chairs and some of those that DO have Evac chairs, often don't have staff trained in their use, or don't have staff trained in their use on duty when the courses are running, particularly when those courses are in the evening.

So from our point of view, what are we supposed to do? The installation and use of Evac chairs isn't a legal requirement and we can't force the management of all of the venues we use to install them and train their staff because they aren't under any obligation to do so. So, all we can do in some circumstances is try to ensure our courses are hosted on the ground floor, and where this isn't an option, put arrangements in place to move learners to a place of safety until further assistance can be obtained, which doesn't necessarily mean wait until the fire service arrive, although to be fair there sometimes isn't an alternative especially as some of our classes are attended solely by learners with mobility problems, and as someone previously mentioned, even where the chairs are installed, if you've only got one, you can only evacuate one person at a time.

Also, moving to a place of safety doesn't necessarily mean being behind a fire door in the vicinity of a fire, many premises are large enough to be able to move to another area of the building away from the fire, and I know it's a different scenario but if you think about hospitals for example, it would be hugely impractical to evacuate everyone and instead what tends to happen is that patients are moved from the area identified as dangerous to a safer area within the building.

Yeah, I know I haven't come up with any definitive answer, but really that's the point I am trying to make, it isn't all as cut and dried as "use an evac chair", "management's job to evacuate everyone" "can't rely on fire service to evacuate people" etc but you can only do as much as you can do within the realms of practicablility surely? And isn't it just as important to make sure that there are adequate fire risk assessments carried out on a regular basis to identify areas of potential risk and minimise the likelihood of a fire occurring??

Her problem was solved by the Fire Safety officer for her floor escorting and supporting my wife down the stairs. The main problem was because she was slower moving than a 'normal' or 'fitter' person, that she was slowing the evacuation down. By waiting till everyone had gone past the being supported and escorted the evacuation did not take much longer than usual.

Phil,

I would agree with you. In my previous job I looked after a number of sites with evac chairs and was certified as a trainer. I think that most of the perceived problems stemmed from lack of adequate training. The main issue of course is how do you get mobility-impaired people out of the building safely? The evac chair is as good as anything that I have come across.

Chris

Phil - Fire Marshal
Warrington.

I have read most of the comments on the Evac-Chair. We have three installed at my place of work. Advice on their use is included as part of the Fire Safety Awareness Training for all of the employees.
One thing that I have noticed from the posts above is that some say that the chair is uncomfortable. I disagree, there is an addition which can be added to the evac-chair which can be attached quickly and easily. It's called the 'comfy seat' which gives a flatter surface and has an additional safety belt.
I find these chairs very easy to use, and it's better to have some form of evacuation than none at all.
We also employ the 'Horizontal Evacuation' strategy as part of Fire Action Routines, therefore it would only be as a last resort that the 'Evac-Chair' would be used.
Hope your find my comments useful.

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I'm aware of the alternatives. I was asking Kev how the problem was resolved. Sometimes psychology is more of a help than technology. Working on the ground floor is an obvious benefit, fire-rated lifts another.

Alternatives to evac chair is Supplemental Escape devices, such as those available when your conventional means of egress is block. See High Rise Escape Systems www.hres.co.uk for examples of this.

Good to know that there is a PEEP in place for your wife, Kev. Must admit I'm intrigued what alternative to an evac chair is going to be used to assist her safe evacuation.

My wife is dasabled and works in the City od London in the finacial area of the City wher a lot of the buildings are old and have several floors. She tried the use of an evac chair during a fire drill and a) was terified and b) because of the nature of her disability was unable to walk properly following the evacuation. She has come to an agreement with the buildings safety officer and fire wardens on what steps should be taken should she need to evacuate in an emergency. Common sense like all health & safety matters should always be used.

Whilst it is disturbing that no major progress has been made over the span of this thread (2003), it is a good thing that people are starting to look outside the proverbial box.

There are a lot of valid points from people over this post as well as some ill informed ones.

The law is clear regarding the use of a refuge. They are there to allow you more time to evacuate building occupants. They are NOT holding areas for people with disabilties et al to await rescue by the Fire Service. ALL guidance documents such as BS9999, BS8300, BD 2441 as well as Fire Risk Assessment - Means of Escape for Disabled People produced by the government state this.

Evac chairs are just one solution for disabled and special needs evacuation. In some locations and businesses they are ideal; in others they are not. There are 30 officaly recognised methods and systems and they depend on the type of disability and need identified in the Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan (PEEP).

If you are unsure or unclear on the system you are using or do not have a system in place you need to seek advice from a professional company who can advice you.

Andy
info@firesafetyoa.co.uk

ONE POINT - There is an alternative to the evac chair its called the spider see www.spiderlifeline.com it looks a lot more efficient, would be interested on other members views on this as a viable alternative?

We have 2 ladies that have difficulty walking who, due to their large build, are unable to sit safely in the evacuation chair we normally use for disabled evacuation.

I would never want to evacuate and leave these ladies in the building, even assuming the building, being fairly modern, has good fire protection.
I did consider carrying them down in a stable office chair but their weight would require several strong members of staff to lift them and we often do not have staff with that ability.
If we were to assist them in walking slowly down the stairs they would probably hold up others evacuating so we would need them to evacuate last which I am also uneasy with.

Any advice would be very welcome as I am struggling to come up with the best solution.

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Andrew

If anyone (Visitor-Contractor) ventures onto your property then you should ensure that they inform someone in control that they have an impairment that may affect their ability to act and respond to a fire alarm and make their way out to the assembly point.
The PEEP regulations indicates that you should have made arrangements to ensure those with a mobility impairment can be taken out of the building and if "an aid to evacuation" is required then the required numbers of staff should be trained in its use.
You did it right and to be fair so did your colleague - as both of you were not informed if a "buddy system" was necessary then both were unsure and did you best in a given situation (an evacuation).

What should happen is as mentioned above any person with an impairment should be known to staff (evacuation team), he/she should make themselves known to the person with the impairment and where you should meet should they require assistance, not necessarily an evacuation.

This should all form part of your evacuation plan with no exceptions.
I hope this helps. Further infonation can be found in the fire law site.

John Clenaghan
fire.risccorp@blueyonder.co.uk

Our workplace recently trained a few EVAC chair operators, shortly after there was a real alarm ( toaster fire ), and as there were no disabled people on my floor I went straight down the nearest stairs and out. The EVAC operator on the opposite wing waited at the top of the stair well with the EVAC chair open, ' in case anyone needed assistance ', although he knew no-one had used the service lift that day to enter our floor. Who's following the right process here, as I thought a disabled person ( in our case someone who has used the service lift to get to our floor ) has to make themselves known so that the EVAC operator can identify them as needing assistance the moment an emergency happens, and you're not meant to wait around at the top of a stairwell just in case someone who wasn't previously disabled but has been injured in the incident shows up, however noble they are being.

Thanks David,

I have had a look at their website and it looks very good. Have you got contact details of the person you spoke to by any chance ?

Yours sincerely,

Peter Jones

Slightly disconcertingly, I note that I started this thread more than five years ago!

Seeing as you asked, Peter, I recently attended the Universities Health and Safety Association autumn conference in Cambridge. One of the exhibitors there was a company called FERNO (http://www.ferno.co.uk) who I had not come across before. They appear to provide a range of transport solutions targeted at the medical profession, but had an evacution chair on view that could be used to evacuate up stairs as well as down.

I've no experience or knowledge of them, but the guy at the stand seemed very knowledgeable and helpful.

This is an interesting point. We first considered the Evac+Chair and as highlighted by Mr Scholes his chairs are priced lower than most chairs. The issue we had and still have is:
1.) lateral transfer is very difficult due to the way the seating is constructed
2.) Our people felt less safe sitting in the chair and had difficulty with some stairs due to their incline.

In my personal opinion we need the best chair possible to evacuate a building but nobody discusses what we need to do to create the best chair. Who has tried other chairs than Evac and has got a good comparison?

Yours sincerely,


Peter Jones

As highlighted the Ambulance service use these types of chair everyday, users of buildings generally don't - even those trained. Yes they can be useful but personally I'd rather slide, roll or crawl down stairs etc to get away from danger when at least I've got an element of control rather than being strapped into a chair and trundled into oblivion! (I am occasionally in a wheelchair and hemiplaegic). Many others have agreed with my view!
For people using them to move people about in buildings - are they aware and trained to deal with manual handling issues, personal liability insurance - do they have it?; latter usually under business' policy.
People must not be 'forced' to operate or use them, just as they have an element of choice in whether to use a fire extinguisher or not!

Dear all,

I agree with that. That is the point that I am trying to raise. Ferno has been building ambulance chairs for 40 years.. My personal experience tells me that that experience is important but simplicity is key in these situations. The pricing was very attractive but I need to know that my staff has a safe escape and as an alternative Ferno has offered me more confidence. As mr Scholes has a point that Paraid has the experience but this is also their advantage as they are well known. Ferno is less known in this market but I have found that their products are well liked by me staff and the training shows their experience.


Kind regards,

Peter Jones