Toilet Requirements

Hi Everyone, I have read through all your posts looking for some information that help in my case. The company I work for has been informed by a planning company that we should provide disabled toilets, but we do not have any disabled staff. Should this be something we should only consider if we were to employ or if one of our employees became disabled? We are currently planning a small renovation of our reception area and need to know if we legally need to include this within the very small budget available for this project.

Hello All,

Very interesting thread. I am designing what could be described as a 'weight loss boutique' for a client of mine. The business involves customers signing up for a course of excercise treatments on specially made machines wearing vacuum pump suits that increase circulation to areas where weight is difficult to shift. Although very expensive and only made by one European manufacturer these machines are really highly glorified cycling and running machines that you can get in to with this 'wetsuit' type of kit on that is plugged in and monitored. Very space age looking.

The unit the client is going in to is a retail shell that has change of use granted to D1. Max customers at a time are believed to be 7 with max 3 staff. It is a small unit and showers, changing and toilets are necessary for customers.

We are using the approved inspector route and they have agreed that in accordance with our access statement non ambulant disabled users will not be able to use the machinery and as such disabled showers will not be necessary. However they stated that although a disabled toilet is not required at present the unit may be sold in the future and that as such we should provide a disabled toilet. Indeed I included one in the initial designs so that the client was aware of this from the off.

However now that the detailed planning and user scenario and financial costings are being done and tenders are being prepared we are questioning this statement from the Approved Inspectors. The unit is only 100 sq m approx and due to the layout the toilet/changing core is quite tight. The showers and changing rooms are smaller and of a lesser number than likely required by the users which is prompting myself and the client to reconsider the Approved Inspectors concerns.

Can the Approved Inspector insist we need to provide a disabled WC given he said it was only for future provision for the next owner / tenant? I want to challenge this but in this unusual circumstance I am not sure of the precedent or where we stand. The client is also happy to state in the access statement that should the business / premises be sold that the disabled toilet will be reinstated to the current design. I am not sure if this is necessary though or whether it is enforceable let alone sufficient to satisfy the Approved Inspectors.

In summary we are currently providing a disabled toilet for the potential to be used by a guest, a visitor, or a friend / accomplice of a customer using the services. However the Approved Inspector said its only needed for the future. For all we know the business may be operating for many years and this less than effective use of space could seriously affect the business plan and we feel we need to be absolutley sure this is necessary in the best regards of the business.

Any tips or pointers where to go for clarity would be welcome.
Many thanks,

Hi Neil,
Thanks for you advice, I am really appreciated!
Your commend did ring me on something other than statutory requirement, which you are absolutely right. Thanks!

Different slant on it. Providing separate facilities where possible is advantageous. Most women and some men may prefer to eat elsewhere if separation isn't apparent. Personal differences of people and perception could be a killer on the business. If you know your customer, then you can decide on the risk to the income of the business. How your local society perceives you will affect your business. Risk assess your local cultures, politics, and social behaviours to make your strategy in making new loos a high for your customer.

Could you fit in a ladies cubicle and a mixed use disability facility? Is that 'enough' to satisfy your footfall of customers? Would one disability mixed use toilet be enough for all your customer footfall? What will your customers think of the final plan, whichever it may be?

I'm not telling you any law here, as I think your business should be considered in what you spend. Will the cost bring more custom or better reputaiton? How frequently is the facility used per day, extrapalate that over 5 years cost and work out how much that has costed you, for each customer to spend a penny. Your budget is everything, and so are your customers repeat orders, word of mouth and new customers won on reputation. Call me old fashioned!

Hi Neil
Thanks for the reply!
It might be unclear from my previous question. What I am propose to do is to take down the two separate gent and lady. Then put a unisex disable for all customers to share. ie. there will be only one toilet available in the restaurant like what we have at home.
thanks!

There is nothing wrong with unisex facilities. Indeed this may just open up enough space to deliver a suitable cubicle for DDA compliance. Read Doc Mof the building regs and ensure you go for the right fixtures and access, exampling it isn't just about the cubicle, how will a wheelchair user get from restaurant front door to said new cubilcle, is there width enough to manœuvre (900mm suggested) or passing points (length of corridor and other passing traffic considerations)?

Men and women can share sinks, hand driers/towels, mirrors and I would ask you fit brick built or fully enclosed cubicles and not modular fit with gaps and potentially no provision for an ugly urinal. Doors to cubicles could be clearly marked as male or female, but don't forget a disabled loo will be unisex anyway, no-one can expect a business to provide 2 units just because there are two genders!

Building regulation changes with technology and of course what we do as work, or sociallychanges what is perceived as our minimum statutory compliance. This is why when you see a Wimpy bar (example - not real) that has not got a disability unit or maybe has a final exit fire door that opens inward, and you are seeking planning permission and cannot have that standard, is likely because the Wimpy may just have been built a very long time ago, having never been refurbished since. Another example is these near all glass office towers, won't be built today because of environmental reasons a limit on the percentage of glass exterior is in place.

Contact your council building surveyors and ask for a bit of free advice. Email your concept/spec, might get a better answer.

HI everyone,
I have recnetly bought a 20 seats restaurant.
the toilet facilitis are one gent and one lady toilet with out any disable facilities. I am planning to have a disable toilet to fit, but the restaurant have no spare space.
will there be possible to covert the male and female toilet together into a unisex disable toilet? or do I have to keep gent and lady toiet separate?

thanks for advice!

Yeah it is the doc M regs that state the size must be 2.2x2m. However for us making the room 30cm larger will involve major structural changes which were not in the budget and may not be permitted by the landlord? Surely as long as the turning room is there and the door is wide enough then this should be enough?

Fiona
If you are making significant changes, check out the Doc M regs

Suze
Baby changing units are no different to coffee machines, their provision or lack of determine return custom. The baby unit is cheap, the biggest cost is the air freshner, paper covers, nappy disposal etc.
Ive never come across any legislation, but I bought a drop down unit from screwfix, to save on space, I just had forgetten that 'scent' you get from, the used nappy & scented sack & my disposal costs soared.

Hello, we are in the process of converting a former bank into an ice cream parlor with 20 covers.

Our local authority say we need to have one accessible toilet for use by all. The shop currently does have a toilet in place which we were hoping to convert. The room is not a regular shape and dimensions are 2m x2.2 at one side but 2x1.7 at the other. So it seems that my room is too small by 30cm on one wall.

This is a supporting wall and to move it for the sake of 30cm seems insane. We do have the required 1.5 x1.5 turning room if a sliding door replaced the inward opening door. Can they really make us make structural chances?

hello
we are refurbishing a shop into a coffee shop, change of use, and are having lots of help from the building inspector etc
the only concern is do we have to have baby changing facilities by law, as the units are very expensive?
we don't want to exclude babies (and parents of course!) but can we make our own wall attached unit, rather than forking out £250?
advice welcome!
SuzieToast

There is a seperate issue of whether toilets are required, which is an environmental health issue, which looking at prevoius comments does seem to be vague at best and down to individual Local Authorities interpretation of the requirements.

However if you have toilet facilities available, provision should be made as to not discriminate against thhose who cannot manage the stairs. This applies to both staff and customers.

It is important to distinguish between the two requirements.

Nick

All very interesting but also confusing some say toilets yes others no, there are cafes in the big cities that are part of a chain that do not have any toilet facilities but sell food to sit and eat in. I presume they were givven a licence by the local authority?

Unfortunately, as you are providing a service and you would discriminate against those who could not use the stairs to access the toilets in the basement, there is an oblogation to provide accessible toilet facilities.

The question also arises as to access to the building as provision should be made for wheelchair users to be able to access the building.

The access issued should be considered as part of the Design and Access statement for the Planning Application.

Best regards,

Nick

Hi. I have just taken over an old bank (built in 1968), applying for change of use to a3 (cafe bar). My question is of disabled toilets.

There are toilets already installed in the building but not disabled, they are also all situated in the basement.

It's a 40 cover cafe, with no main sewerage point to the ground floor and space is limited.

The only building work that is being Doberman isvto take down the false Walls.

Do I have to fit disabled toilets?

Accessible unisex toilets are designed to suit disabled people other than wheelchair users, so it may not be possible to take it out in the case mentioned by Julie. This is because in an accessible toilet there are standard grabrails that have no value for wheelchair users at all.

There is also a standard option in the regulations which is to have just one unisex unit for everyone if it has all the grabrails and is made a tad wider and fitted with a second or recessed full-size washbasin.

As the regulations do not allow an area in a building to made any worse for disabled people, I wonder if this would prevent the unit being removed?

Peter

Very interesting thread. We are in the process of purchasing a deli with additional 25 covers but just one staff wc accessed via a communal external walkway. As there are flats above still let out by the landlord they have insisted that the WC is not used by customers - in fact this was specifically stated in the licence granting the change of use to part cafe. We have been referred to Local Govt .. Act 1976 - but this of course only gives the local Environmental Health Dept the option to insist if reasonable to do so. So we are in the difficult position of deciding whether to take the risk they don't trouble themselves....! Any ideas or views much appreciated.

Julie

A building of this age should also have an access audit as part of the design.

REgards

Barry L

Julie,

If the building is two years old, the Building Regulations require a accessible toilet and this should be adjacent to the entrance or reception area. Unless it is a small building (less than 200m2 per floor) where there may be an arguement to make provision for a lift with suitable stuctural openings in floors etc so that a lift may be installed should the need arise, the building should have a lift to the upper floor.

The situation you describe does not meet the requirements of the Building Regulations before becoming a fire safety and access consultant I spent 30 years enforcing the Building Regulations. As the buisling is over two years old the Local Authority cannot take action regarding the contravention but you are left with the situation that if you employ someone who is not ambulant disabled or you frequently have visitors to your office, a lift should be provided.

I would suggest you raise the issue with your landlord if you are renting, for a copy of the Completion Certificate for the building which would be issued by the Building Control body who inspected the works.

I am sorry it ended up rather long winded, but sounds as if you may have nded up in a rather awkward situation.

Regards,

Nick

Further to Nick's post.

The building is a two year old office building that has never been occupied on an out of city centre development.

Actually our toilets have been here 40+ years also. We are talking about an old shop here with.

My main issues are with EHO just noticing now & not for the previous years

In answer to Pete's question, at the moment, as there is no toilet provision for anyone, you are not discriminating. If toilet provsion is made it may be possible to make it adequate for people who may be ambulant disabled with the addition of grab rails, contrasting colours etc. to meet the needs of as many people as possible but if there is not physically syfficient space to install a fully compliant accessible toilet, an Access Statement should be prepared to indicate the requirement and the steps taken to comply as far as possible and explaning the reasons why full compliance cannot be achieved.

Much of my work is advising clients on how to provide the best facilities they can within the constraints of their existing premises and this is a common problem.

With regard to Julie's comment, it does beg the question why was this accessible tiolet located in this position in the first place and are other accessible faciliteis available elsewhere in the building.

In order to provide a full answer to the question I would need to know more about the building and its use.

Hope this helps,

Nick Hibbs

We have a disabled toilet on the first floor of a building without disabled access to the first floor! Can we rip it out and make it a normal facility?

I bought my shop 4 years ago, its food retail with a sandwich/pasty trade for takeaway & some eat in. When we took over their were 13 outside covers & 10 inside. We reduced both numbers (8+7).

EHO has visited several times, once insisting that a second door be put between the two toilets & the kitchen area. Each time they have walked past the tables (with customers).

The shop has been here 40+ years, the last owners introduced the seating during their 7 years. But only now has the EHO 'become aware of them'. The EHO advised planning, an enforcer visited, it was explained that we were still trading under A1 & the seating was ancillary, that it had been discussed with a planning officer, two weeks later a letter arrived saying everything was in order.

A short while a go a letter arrived from the EHO saying as we were now a cafe & were now preparing sandwiches we had to provide customer toilets & that access through our prep area was inappropriate as customers might contaminate food.

When we took over we stated this activity amongst others on the registration form, (it is the same as the previous owners), they have known that customers use the toilets (by observation & advice given), no food is left out to be contaminated (excluding boxed deliveries), generally I'm in the store/kitchen area.

I cannot lay the store/kitchen area any different (its not ideal but its what has been here for 40+ years), without losing freezers & that would mean losing my bake off goods. I cannot create a tunnel to the toilets, I can only put a door up & say no access or access by leaving the shop & walking around the back. If I do any major work I will have to then comply with a part M toilet (nice but I cannot afford it or locate it).

I have done so much work since taking over that they didnt make the previous owners undertake & when I ask why it wasnt enforced before they simply say 'because we didnt notice it'.

Can EH just insist?
Can they ignore the past use?
Can the ignore the 'NOT REASONABLY PRACTICABLE OR FINANCIALLY PROPORTIONATE' argument

The whole thing is made worse by a planning application to rebuild a small shop opposite into a larger supermarket (express type) which will kill some areas of trade but might improve the 'cafe' side

Pete