Orange order and discrimination on the grounds of religion

Ah!!! The disease of Northern Irelandism infects the hallowed(can I say that?) halls of WP law! (I'm from NI so I can say that without being racist!) Be practical for everyones peace of mind. Can you roster another assistant to cover Sunday am, or switch shifts? I have to agree with Pete above, about the persons right to their religious belief. If you try to deem membership of the Order a political belief and therefor exempt from protection, you may be barking up the wrong tree. Does the person see the Mass as blasphemy? Does their actual religious belief preclude their attendance? . When my Father died, my friends who were in the order, came to the chapel and waited outside until the requiem mass was over, and thats before all the politicos decided to play nice with the neighbours. Going in heavy handed with JD and requirements of the post etc will inflame a situation which can be managed out with a little common sense. All too often reaching for the law book is the first rather than the last option.

Thank you Peter. Alex using a church as a money changing enterprise is different and distant from any religeous service I know of. I do not consider it is the right or duty of anyone to sit in judgement of other peoples sincerely held beliefs. To suggest throwing them out of their place of worship is really too much. A sabbatarian has to remove the word 'duty of' because a duty of care is 24/7 whereas a 6 day week is an avoidance of such a description.

as a past member of the orange order yes the care worker has the right not to take part in a religious service which is against her heritage and belielf as to offend her and her religion, this shuold not affect the way and manner they will look after the people in care.as my grandmother was 77 yrs in the orange order who was in a care home and died in the same room as a woman of the opppsite religion. the care worker has a right to her believe as everyone pistol

That may be your view Michael, but in traditional Presbyterian belief the attendance at a Blasphemous event is seen as condoning it. It has been put to me that a believer should stop the blasphemy in much the same way as Christ expelled the money changers from the Temple.
I am not supporting or indeed condoning the action, but many stricter Christians who follow a sabbatarian view would not provide such a duty of care on the Lord's Day. Right or wrong?

The duty of care being requested does not entail the conversion to Catholicism of the carer. A duty of care to assist another human being to attend their place of worship, calls to my mind the parable of the Good Samaritan. I believe Christ would approve the carer whichever Christian denomonation the carer was asked to escort the worshipper to.

As someone brought up in the Presbyterian tradition I may be able to shed some light on the matter.
The objection is to the issue of the mass, communion and transubstantiation. In the mass, the priest, is believed to transform the bread and wine, literally, into the corporeal form of Christ, e.g. into the body and blood. To traditional Presbyterian belief, this is a blasphemy, as the original act was performed by Christ it is an act that cannot be performed by a man. Therefore it was blasphemous to attend the mass. indeed one of the Scottish presbyterian groups expelled the Lord Chancellor of England, mackay of Clashfern for attending a funeral at which a mass was held.
When my brother married a catholic, the wedding mass was held the evening before in order to allow stricter members of my family to attend.

The Job description is "care assistant" which is not a religeous duty. Leaving he who " reports being a minister in the Orange Order" to one side.
I am sure that within the congregation of the Catholic service there should be several persons capable of assisting an incapacitated church member.
From a personal point of view I think I would prefer a more liberal approach from a professional "care" though.

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I think Adam Brett's point was that the Orange Order won't be a religion in itself. The little I know about it suggests it is an organisation based around the Protestant branch of the Christian faith, and may well have particular rules that it expects its members to obey. But it is not a branch of Protestantism or indeed a church in itself, so it seems to me more likely that an Order rule apparently banning a member entering a Catholic church is not very likely to satisfy the religious discrimination test. But if it was in fact a rule of a recognised church that the person belonged to, that could be different.

One thing is clear - we do all need to get wiser about some of the more obscure religions, and perhaps indeed about the mainstream ones too.

Interesting stuff Gillian, and it does add some credibility to the claims made by the employee in question (they had reported for example not being able to attend the wedding of their daughter that was in a Catholic church.)

Obviously I agree that it is sensible to try to negotiate alternate acceptable duties for the employee. My original query was however about the technicalities of the law as other forum posters understood it. The context in question was not Northern Ireland, I understand this is crucial as the 2003 regs exclude political beliefs from protection unless they are similar to religious beliefs.

I am guessing given the lack of detailed responses that the case law concerning the interpretation of these terms is yet to be established. Further I am guessing that the definition of the Orange order (religion, political belief, philosophical belief etc) is somewhat unclear given the lack of detail I am able to obtain from their web sites and the black my e mails to them has drawn.

Workplace Law asked Adam Brett, of L?Estrange & Brett Solicitors based in Belfast, to comment on this issue:

"The Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 makes unlawful discrimination or less favourable treatment in employment whether on grounds of religious belief (or the absence of any such belief) or of political opinion. Political opinion is defined more widely than simply Unionist/Nationalist.

"In the particular circumstance raised in this forum thread the issue would not be the status of the Orange Order itself, but the religious beliefs or political opinions of the individual employee. It is certainly the case that a number of Protestant churches or bodies in Northern Ireland (and, I think perhaps also in Scotland) have doctrinal difficulties with the Roman Catholic position such that they either recommend or require members or ministers not to take part in services or parts of services. It is understood in Northern Ireland that members of the Orange Order can get into trouble for attending Catholic services, even funerals.

"If an employee has religious beliefs, of whatever faith, such that they would have difficulty in attending a service or meeting involving a different faith then the employer is likely to be in difficulty if it tries to insist that the employee should attend. As previously suggested a pragmatic answer may be that the care assistant takes the person as far as the entrance to church grounds.

"The employer should remember that the person being assisted also has a right not to be discriminated against in the provision of services both under the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 and, if a public body, such as a Hospital Trust, in line with the obligations not to discriminate contained in the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

"More generally, the definition of religious discrimination is wider in Northern Ireland, and as indicated the legislation also includes discrimination on grounds of political opinion. In addition because of the history in Northern Ireland there are much more specific duties imposed on employers. In particular, where an employer is in any one week employing more than 10 people this triggers an obligation to register with the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland, and continuing obligations to monitor the background of employees and of applicants for employment, to file annual returns with detailed information and to conduct not less than every 3 years an assessment (an Article 55 review) as to whether or not the organisation is affording equality of opportunity, and if not what steps it will take to do so. Details about monitoring and reviews can be found on the website of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland the address of which is http://www.equalityni.org."

Adam Brett
L?Estrange & Brett Solicitors
http://www.lestrangeandbrett.com

That the orange order is not a religion misses the point. This person [who sounds to be in the wrong job] claims to belong to an organisation that 'forbids' him entering a catholic church. I think that is unlikely, but if he can prove it he has a point. But if his job requires him to enter a church he must decide which is more important to him - his job or his quasi religious adherence.
I'd sack him for refusing to do his job.

If this question emanates from Northern Ireland, be aware the law is different there and has been in place for many years and requires advice specific to the Northern Ireland situation. Even if not, parallels might be drawn from the required approach under NI law, where I would expect there is a well developed understanding and practice in this sort of question.

Phillip.
Probability is that it is a non religious and has beliefs that like most organisations have a political leaning.

I believe that the answer is eventually only to be found High Court Ruling or even a European Court of Justice finding.

However, a legal team specialising in this area should be able to give a sound guidance in the interim.

I doubt if ACAS or any other non-specialist organisation could help.

It is clear that the Orange Order is neither a religion nor a belief per se.

Robert
agred with the course of action you advocate (i.e. exempt the person from that duty)and this is how I dealt with the query in the training session. I feel however that this is a 'first aid response'. I am trying to get to the bottom of whether or not being a member of the orange order is a belief or a religion consequently bringing protection against discrimination under the regs of 2003 or is it a political belief or none of the above and consequently excluded from protection under the regs of 2003?

The web site to which you refer only really tells me that it is a 'protestant fraternity', the history of it can easily be interpreted as political and religious.

Is the real answer that we are waiting for a tribunal ruling to clarify?

There is a very real difference between the Orange Order and many of the other organisations you cite, in that the Orange Order are specifically a 'Protestant Fraternity' (their words), while the others simply require belief in a Supreme Being, and welcome members from any religion.

Phillip,

If you look at www.grandorange.co.uk you will find out about the Orange Order. There are many orders who have a religious basis - Mason, RAOB, Rotary, Inner Wheel, Forresters to name a few.

As far as the employer discriminating goes it is now a problem as the JD does not seem to cover the matter of religious support from care assistants. I feel that if the employer required this person to go against their beliefs then it would be discrimination. Also if the person was to support other, non RC, beliefs then he would be discriminating against one religion. As a result of vacarious liability the the employer would also be coniving at discrimination. The best answer I feel would be to excempt this person from any religious support for any religion, including his own.
Bottom line is specialist legal advice is needed.

Surely as a care assistant they can just take the person to the church. If the patient is able bodied enough they dont have to go inside or sit through the service and just wait for them to come out. If wheelchair bound cant A another fellow church goer push them in? perhaps i am not looking deep enough into this but it does seem a quick and easy solution to me.

Robert can you indicate your source for the info you give in the first paragraph? My prejudice was in line with your assertions but I'd like to educate them. However the issue I am concerned with is whether the employer is discriminating in making the employee support the RC client in their religious observance. I know the regs are as Jackie quotes them but I understood they went on to exclude political beliefs from protection. This is what led to my original query is the Orange order a religion, a political belief or none of the above?

I agree with Jackie as far as she goes. However, firstly the Orange Order is not a religion, though membership is restircted to Protestant Christians. The Minister would be a Minister of a Protestant religion and he may administer to the needs of Orange Order members.

He would not be discriminating against Roman Catholics, if he had the same approach to Jews, Sikhs, Muslims, Zoratarians etc. However, if he did not have this approach to all non-Protestant Religions then he would be discriminating and he and the company could be taken to court under the Religious Discrimniation Act.

The Contract of employment and the JD would appear weak and may well need re-writing.

since the implementation (in December 2003)of the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003, job applicants and employees have the right not to suffer discrimination or harassment on grounds of "any religion, religious belief or similar philosophical belief". Thus if an employee is dismissed on the grounds related to his/her religious beliefs, he/she would be able to bring a claim to an employment tribunal for direct or indirect religious discrimination.
Article 10 Human Right Act 1?¤äà¸

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