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Osborne: “We won’t cut emissions faster than Europe”

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39.
Susan Walker
Member - 36 posts
26 Oct 2011 10:52AM

Ernie for Prime Minister? I'll vote for you! It's a shame Ernie but a lot of the things you have said will fall on stoney ground especially on a Saturday night in the City! But I believe you are right in everything you say!


38.
Ernie Smith
Member - 242 posts
25 Oct 2011 10:59AM

Our world is changing in many ways. Mans activities are changing the world; we are cutting down forests and using up the stored resources of fuels and minerals at an unsustainable rate. The climate is changing, it always has. Are the two things linked? Is our demand for and consumption of the world’s natural resources adversely affecting the climate? Who knows for sure? In my opinion nobody does.
What we do know is that there are those with an agenda that will be helped if they can convince everyone else that the burning of fossil fuels is causing the changes. They want to introduce low carbon economies to replace our traditional economies that will give us the opportunity to continue earning money which they can tax and then force us to spend what’s left on things that we didn’t want, things that “will save the world by reducing our dependence upon fossil fuels.” That’s us in the West of course, we in the developed world whose economies have ground to a halt because we are all saturated with the commodities our traditional economies have produced and our consumption levels have fallen because we are all overloaded with the debt we have been encouraged to accumulate in order to keep it all going. Our lifestyle is being changed and not necessarily for the better, we will object and they know it so they developed a plan to convince us that our old lifestyle was killing the world and created “scientific” proof of the fact to support their case. Unfortunately, for them, the climate hasn’t played ball. It cannot make up its mind whether to get hotter or colder so the scientific justification has had to be changed several times now reducing any credibility it originally held. Even hardened devotees are now expressing some form of scepticism about AGW.
The level of doubt is raised even higher when it is considered that the same people who want us to cut back our fuel consumptions are quite happy that the developing world continues to increase their fuel consumptions at a rate even more unsustainable that we have done in the past allowing what have been our traditional economies to flourish in other parts of the world; consumerism facilitating the flow of money.
No one can doubt that the Earths fuel and mineral resources are finite, that they must eventually run out if consumed at current levels so the desire to do something about our usage has to be commended and supported. Unfortunately it appears to me that the people who make the rules of the game are more concerned that the future of corporate controlled capitalism based on global finance is protected and secured rather than redressing any adverse impacts our activities may create. We all cannot be filthy rich and powerful because somebody has to do the work but I’d be more impressed if, instead of feeding us lies, our governments told the truth and designed sustainable plans for the future that would benefit us all and not just the chosen few.


37.
Gareth
Member - 418 posts
24 Oct 2011 3:58PM

But is the global warming caused by man, or just something that will happen even if we all live in a cave? So far, no one can say for certain (and back it up with any real evidence) that we are the cause. And since global warming has happened time and time again over millions of years, evidence does tend to lead us down the path of it being a natural phenomonon.


36.
James Vizard
Member - 43 posts
22 Oct 2011 8:10AM

Interestingly in today's independent, "Professor Richard Muller, a physicist at the universioty of Californoa, who has been an outs[poken crtic of the science underpinning global warming said that there is little doubt in his mind that the phenomenen is real".


35.
James Vizard
Member - 43 posts
21 Oct 2011 8:26AM

Indeed Mark/Bridget

Beloow from Fight Club

You buy furniture. You tell yourself, this is the last sofa I will ever need in my life. Buy the sofa, then for a couple years you're satisfied that no matter what goes wrong, at least you've got your sofa issue handled. Then the right set of dishes. Then the perfect bed. The drapes. The rug. Then you're trapped in your lovely nest, and the things you used to own, now they own you.


34.
Mark
Member - 63 posts
20 Oct 2011 9:34AM

It does occur to me that at this moment in time Human activity bears a striking resemblance to that of a parasitic infestation on the cusp of killing its host.
How can we (as in the supposed 'developed' world) in all conscience, realistically promote perpetual growth whether it be in our economies, population, or the inevitable associated consumption? I'm not enjoying the guilt.

On the subject of movies, I highly recommend 'Fight club' - don't be put off by the misleading title (or the A-list pretty boy) - much of the philosophy behind it is wonderfully thought provoking.

Sorry, it's all personal opinion; no hard facts - whatever they are.


33.
Bridget Plowright
Member - 6 posts
20 Oct 2011 9:11AM

This post has been removed at its author's request.


32.
Ernie Smith
Member - 242 posts
19 Oct 2011 10:18AM

There are no national secrets exposed in my post and no espionage involved in acquiring the information just some personal experience, an inquisitive mind and a bit of research. The experience comes from being involved with the government in setting up the climate change levy, I learned a lot about what, certainly the people I was working with, really believed and what their objectives were and their plans for our future. The research, anyone can do. Yes some cynicism helps but it's not essential as, I've found, a healthy dollop develops naturally as you learn more. You can reach your own conclusions by taking a look at the UN's website and doing a bit of research. There's also a lot of information posted out there by fellow agents but I would urge some skepticism until you have, as far as possible, corroborated some of the data from several other sources.
I’ve expressed no opinion as to whether the situation I have described is good or bad, right or wrong we can each have our own view on that but I do believe that is how it works. With seven billion people, and rising, in the world we can no longer live as individuals by growing potatoes and keeping a few chickens so there has to be some sort of “game” and somebody has to make the rules. Is the one we are playing the right one? Does everyone get a fair share of the “winnings”? Are the new rule changes planned to benefit all players? I have my doubts.
Capitalism has given us a great lifestyle and should be capable of giving the same benefit to others but capitalism controlled by corporations and funded by banksters requires an ever expanding marketplace which requires an ever increasing population. At the current rate the world population will double within some of our lifetimes. Is that really something we should celebrate? Can it work? Our governments own figures for a sustainable population for the UK is 35 million.
The next time I compare the human races activities on earth with those of a virus on a cell will not be the first; there are some strong similarities there.
There are still some “empty” places in the UK but we really shouldn’t plan to fill them up. I’d much prefer to keep them for the enjoyment of those of us who are already here.


31.
Susan Walker
Member - 36 posts
19 Oct 2011 9:01AM

Ernie I like you! And you too Agent Smith! Well said! You sound like my very clever (and he really is!) husband - he's cynical about all the same things as you. But he likes to think he is a realist. Like I quoted earlier "How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think" Another reason for keeping our education standards low! The Americans seem even better at this brain washing.


30.
James Vizard
Member - 43 posts
19 Oct 2011 8:33AM

From the Matrix:

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.


29.
Ernie Smith
Member - 242 posts
18 Oct 2011 9:43AM

The climate does change, it has always changed. It is changing now. It changes due to natural influences but is mans activities significantly contributing to the current changes? Even those who profess to understand the science and have studied the history are divided in their opinions. I personally have my doubts but I really don’t know. What I do know is this. In the latter part of the last century, recognising that massive changes in the demographic profile of the world population were about to occur with the development of China, India and some of the other non developed nations resulting in the loss of most of the traditional economies of the Western, developed, world the UN think tanks were tasked with providing a solution to the problems these changes would introduce. The solution they came up with was to introduce a low carbon economy justified, at first on the premise that man was causing the next ice age but when the climate trends changed they revised their justification to man is causing the Earth to burn up but now that there is so much uncertainty as to whether it will actually get hotter or colder they try to justify their actions, essentially taxing us all to death, on the basis that whatever changes are coming they must be bad and it’s mans fault.
It’s nothing more than a game that the people who make the rules and control our destinies have created for us all to participate in. Money isn’t real anymore, it doesn’t represent anything and very soon it will not even have any physical form. It’s nothing more than digits in the cells of a spreadsheet that the people who own money control. This nonexistent money is now the main commodity in our economies created in the minds of the global elite, distributed by the banksters and consumed by us.
The objective of the game is to facilitate and encourage the spending of money as it’s only when money changes hands that they get paid; in the real world that is as of course they also have the artificial world of their financial casinos where enormous amounts of money is conjured up out of thin air and added to their spreadsheets. The introduction of the low carbon economy will result in the transfer of trillions of dollars around the world the use of which will have to be paid for building even higher their pyramid of wealth and power. So the reason that our governments are so keen for us all to accept their version of events, accept the new rules and continue playing their game is not too difficult to establish. The low carbon economy is designed to give us something to do, a way to continue earning and distributing cash, forcing us to spend it on things we didn’t really want, making the money go round.
I also know that in their desire to take the lead in the new game our recent governments have prematurely killed off our traditional economies and have brought the country to the brink of ruin. Can they get us out of the mire? I don’t know as, unfortunately, they have built a house of cards which we are currently seeing wobble. It’s unsustainable and yet they dogmatically pursue their goal of changing our world out of all recognition. And what are we, the sheeple, doing? We’re doing what they want us to do. We’re engaging in that great British pastime of discussing the weather and arguing as to whether we think it is going to be hotter or colder in the future and whether we can do anything about it.


28.
Mark
Member - 63 posts
18 Oct 2011 9:16AM

Susan, you're scaring me:

'...crowded and over populated...' - '...empty shelves and queues...' - '...this country should really only sustain half the number of folk we already have, and the same applies to many areas in the world...' - '...What did Hitler say...?'

Will you be proposing a 'final solution' any time soon?


27.
Susan Walker
Member - 36 posts
17 Oct 2011 9:42AM

It also depends if you have bothered to check the facts Lorraine!


26.
Susan Walker
Member - 36 posts
17 Oct 2011 9:40AM

When you travel to work anywhere and I do in Devon, it is crowded and over populated. You only have try and shop at the weekend or even at night to find empty shelves and queues. The trouble is that most people need to live near the towns and cities for work. To be comfortable and not polluted this country should really only sustain half the number of folk we already have, and the same applies to many areas in the world. The resources are being stretched because of demand, it isn't just the fuel that is the problem. Why do we all care about fuel problems when there are far more serious problems right under our noses. The main problem that probably affects everybody in this country is the fabric of society - which is perished and brittle. What did Hitler say? "How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think!" And - "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed."


25.
Lorraine Kerr
Member - 256 posts
14 Oct 2011 5:10PM

And "facts" learned at uni are very often just opinions of "experts" presented as fact. As my geography professor often said, "Just because it's in typescript and in a book by a leading expert, doesn't make it fact".

And that applies to forums too!


24.
Lorraine Kerr
Member - 256 posts
14 Oct 2011 5:07PM

The south-east of England, as opposed to the whole of England, may well be overcrowded but there are large swathes of England & Wales that are barely populated. The majority of Scotland is barely populated, with most living in the central belt & the major towns.

Don't tell me, the bit that does all the work & produces all the wealth is overcrowded and should therefore me exempt from all social & environmental responsibility?


23.
Colin Banks
Member - 16 posts
14 Oct 2011 1:34PM

I couldn't agree more Susan, just a shame I cant cite any sources as steve asked.... but in all honesty I can't remember which research articles at Uni I read them in.


22.
Susan Walker
Member - 36 posts
14 Oct 2011 10:47AM

Facts are so much better than opinions!


21.
Susan Walker
Member - 36 posts
14 Oct 2011 10:42AM

Yes terrific forum nice to see something interesting instead of the same old rubbish!


20.
Steve Bull
Member - 23 posts
14 Oct 2011 9:30AM

Isn't this supposed to be an employment law forum?


19.
Gareth
Member - 418 posts
14 Oct 2011 8:10AM

James
I would love to be able to ride or walk to work, I quite enjoy going out for a walk or taking my bike out. But unfortunately my journey would be about 22 miles to work by bike or on foot, and at 53 I would need an ambulance for the 2nd part of my journey!
Well said Barry!


18.
Barry Lang
Member - 416 posts
13 Oct 2011 4:13PM

@ Colin

Thanks for the long list of what can cause the effect alas the government cannot tax any of those.
So ALL governments sing from the same song sheet so they can tax away.
A lot of us would belive the voodoo science behind global warming if governments were not using it as a tax base.

As a carbon lifeform I object

Barry


17.
larry key
Member - 35 posts
13 Oct 2011 3:06PM

Aren't we all getting a little carried away.

I've always understood the arguement to be, not that we are cuting emision's. Which in turn would reduce our personel transport and day to day life styles, cripple busness etc,

but

To clean the content of our current total emission's.

Whats the problem !

My car and company fleet is at euro 4 emissions across the board. We dont do anyless mileage.


16.
Colin Banks
Member - 16 posts
13 Oct 2011 12:48PM

The problem here is that most people form opinions on this topic without any real understanding of the science behind it, including many scientists. It’s not as simple as saying the last few winters have been very cold here so global warming is not true. Global warming is about the average temperature across the whole planet and on average that has risen, even if some places have gotten colder.
Climate change, global warming and the greenhouse effect are all different things, don’t get them confused.
Climate change is not under debate, it happens and there is no credible scientist who would argue that it doesn’t. What’s under debate is by how much it is influenced by human interaction. This is incredibly difficult to calculate as it is affected by a whole range of often unpredictable factors. To name a few: The rotation of the earth, the wobble of the earth, the earth’s slightly irregular orbit, the activity of the sun, the activity below the earth’s core, the earths magnetic field, the composition of the atmosphere, natural disasters, plate tectonics, influence from organic life forms, weather patterns and the amount of reflected light. Using levels of carbon 14 to carbon 18 isotopes in arctic regions there is evidence that repeated periods of hot and cold have gone on for many millions of years at least. In fact we are overdue our next ice age if the past few hundred thousand years are to be any guide. We just don’t know enough yet to get more than a hint about what’s going on.
That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to minimise our potential impact however.
And we can’t burn fossil fuels forever. We have already used up what took several hundred million years to create.


15.
Barry Lang
Member - 416 posts
13 Oct 2011 10:35AM

Hello

You do not have to go back to far, when the romans were in britain they grew grapes along hadians wall.
As we go into another cold winter, the global warming brigade change the record to climate change.


Barry


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