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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Whilst Building regulations are not retrospective, when carrying out the required Fire Risk Assessment, under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order or the Fire (Scotland) Act, you should be 'benchmarking' against current standards. This does not automatically mean you are required to comply with these standards but you have to justify your reasons for accepting a standard less than these. For Emergency Lighting the British Standard is BS 5266 Part 1. Other guidance is available at www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw for England and Wales and www.infoscotland.com/firelaw for Scotland.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Alan as a former firefighter I'm surprised that you try and make the case for the provision of hosereels on the basis that as a firefighter you used them. The equipment in the premises is for employee use and hosereels are frequently being replaced by Typer A extinguishers of the appropraite size for the area under consideration. If a fire cannot be extinguished by one or two portable extingyushers then generally the fire is too large and it should be left to the experts.
Dean I would certainly never advocate a no extinguisher policy. As you say the extinguishers can aid escape and elsewhere it has been argued that because persons in the building have not een trained in there use, remove the extinguishers. It should be train those in the building.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Under Section 23 of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order and Part 3 Section 56 of the Fire (Scotland) act and Section 22 of the Regulations made under it, employees have a duty to comply with all fire safety requirements. This would include not tampering with the fire alarm.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
A firefighters' lift could be readily altered to be suitable for the evacuation of a disabled person. It would certainly need a system of communication from the lift landing to ensure someone is alerted to the fact that the disabled person requires to use the lift.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
What type of risk are you refering to?
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
One of the main problems being encountered in all tourist areas is the massive number of B&B premises that did not come under the Fire Precautions Act, apart from Section 10, that now are fully encompassed within both the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order and Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act. This is more of a problem than premises where a standard had been set, all be it very poor in some instances, than those where there was no Fire Safety enforcement previously
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
I agree with Mike the test is relevant to the equipment not people.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Robert, It is impossible to answer the question with the limited information you give. Is the flat up a stair? If so how many floors up is it? If there is a stair is it 'fire protected'? Regarding the comment about a portable ladder, if another route out was necessary a portable ladder would not be an appropriate method.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
It is worthwhile considering the frequency of training as specfied in the now defunct Fire Certificates issued under the Fire Precautions Act 1971. The training was required at commencement of employment and annually thereafter, except in some hotels where the training was every six months In light of the fact that nothing is specified either in the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety Order) nor the Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations, this, I would suggest, is a good starting point.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Certainly reduction in width to an unacceptable level is one criteria for not accepting the stair lift. Saying that the building is of 1970's construction and the new standards do not apply is a bit of a red herring as the FRA should be carried out against the current standards as bechmarks. As you appear to be uncomfortable in making the decision and leaving yourself open to challenge, I would suggest you seek a third party opinion from an appropriate person as the Fire Authority, in my opinion rather strangely, unwilling to pass comment. The Fire Authority remain the enforcing authority of the current fire safety legislation and as such should either accept or reject the fire risk assessment.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Assuming that you are in England or Wales, the document you need is found at http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/151543. For those in Scotland the same information is at http://www.infoscotland.com/firelaw/files/OSG_FULL.pdf. These documents identify when and what type of alarm should be provided.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
I fully agree with all the previous comments but would add that the type of chair, particularly the 'parking' of it, has a bearing on the acceptability or otherwise.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Section 9.4.1 of BS 5839 Part 1 2002 provides information on audibility levels. "A minimum sound level of either 65 dB(A), or 5 dB(A) above any other noise likely to persist for a period longer than 30 s, whichever is the greater, should be produced by the sounders in all accessible parts of the building except as may be recommended in 8.3. If the fire routine for the premises requires the audible alarm to arouse sleeping persons then the minimum sound level should be 75 dB(A) at the bedhead with all doors shut. This will not guarantee that every person will be awakened but can reasonably be expected to wake a sleeping person in most circumstances. Due to the short period for which the fire alarm sound should be experienced, damage to hearing is unlikely to be caused by sound levels below 120 dB(A). Where levels higher than this might be required, special provisions (such as visual signals) may be necessary."
Section 9.3 also states "A larger number of quieter sounders rather than a few very loud sounders may be preferable in order to prevent excessive sound levels in some areas."
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
I don't now speific guidance applicable in England in Wales but if you go to the website http://www.infoscotland.com/firelaw/v2.jsp?pContentID=271 you will find such guidance that is applicable for small premises providing sleeping accommodation including HMOs that fall within part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act - the equivalent of the RRO.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
For those in Scotland the site to go to is www.infoscotland.com/firelaw
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
When carrying out a Fire Risk Assessment the benchmark standard that the fire alarm should be assessed against is BS5839 Part 1 2002. Section 9.4.2 of that standard states "All fire alarm sounders within a building should have similar sound characteristics, unless particular conditions such as an area of high background noise makes this impracticable; in this case other types of fire alarm may also be provided". The local Fire and Rescue Service as the enforcers of the fire safety legislation would deem that ignoring different sounders in the fire risk assessment inappropriate and as such issue a notice under the legislation. Failure to compy with this could ultimately lead to criminal prosecution.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
There is no requirement in law to specifically have fire wardens in all premises. Under the Regulatory (Fire Safety) ORder and Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act all staff require to have appropriate training in relation to fire safety but there is no. However, an adequate and sufficient Fire Risk Assessment carried out under either of the aforementioned legislation may indicate the need for fire wardens who would require a higher level of training than other staff. The need is dictated by numerous factors including the size of the premises, the number of persons emplyed and/or resorting to the premises,the nature of the fire risk within the premises etc.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
The requirement is that the escape route should be kept clear. This means that the width of the escape requires to be maintained until the person escaping is a safe distance from the building. Additionally a car is combustible material and as such should not be under or within 2 metres of an external escape stair. This follows the principle in the Technical Handbooks used in compliance with the Building (Scotland) Act 2003 and the guidance under the English and Welsh Building Act guidance, approved document B.
Enforcing this however can be fraught with problems.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
Section 5.11 of Approved Document B States "In general, doors on escape routes (whether or not the doors are fire doors), shall either not be fitted with lock, latch or bolt fastenings, or they should only be fitted with simple fastenings that can be readily operated from the side approached by people making an escape. The operation of these fastenings should be readily apparent; without the use of a key and without having to manipulate more than one mechanism."
Part 2.19.5 of the Technical Handbooks supporting the Building (Scotland) Act states " Where an exit door from a room, storey or a door across an escape route has to be secured against entry when the building or part of the building is occupied, it should only be fitted with a lock or fastening which is readily operated, without a key, from the side approached by people making their escape."
These are the requirements for new or altered buildings and they are the benchmark standards for carrying out a Fire Risk Assessment under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order and Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act respectively.
Therefore both the situation in your office and the one you describe in hotes is unacceptable.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 22 posts
The point raised in this debate to 'read the instructions before use' does not mean that with the flames rising in front of you begin to read the instructions - it is before the fire occurs and that would not constitute training anyway.
The point I was initially making is that if the extinguisher someone, particulalry the male of the species, will try to use it even if they have no training to the danger of themselfs and others.
Part of the training is to give someone the ability to make the decision if it is beyond their capabilities and yu do not get that on a label.
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