Graham Ferris's newest comments

Hi Mairead, apologies for mis-understanding your comment i.e. "Can anyone tell me what I should be doing - or could we even get rid of them, as we have extinguishers?" To mean you had got rid of the extinguishers. I come across many incidences of removal of fire extinguishers as 'unnecessary' when all along the underlying factor is saving cost and the hassle of training.
Plus, agree with Matthew - if you have a fire blanket to hand and you have a 'small/manageable' fire that is easily controlable with a blanket you won't have to waste an expensive wet chem on it, or vice versa the extinguisher will be on hand for a larger/hotter incident.
Regards

Interesting that your firm have got rid of your extinguishers - "all fires start small and 60% of businesses never recover from a serious fire" Still if it saves money why worry about protecting people and the business? Hopefully the decision to remove the fire extinguishers is backed up by your FRA and that your insurance company is aware

With regards to the fire blanket the competent person as recommended by the FSO will carry out the following, annually:-
Blankets manufactured to BS6575 and BS EN1869 may be inspected as follows. – Take the blanket from its container, ensuring that it can be easily and quickly removed. Unfold and inspect. Ensure that the blanket is placed or laid only on clean dry surfaces at all times to avoid damage to the fabric or coating and/or contamination by dirt or foreign bodies.
Inspect for signs of damage or deterioration. Damage may take the form of cuts or holes in the fabric or coating and particular care must be taken to check the integrity of the fabric or coating at the points were the blanket is folded.
Inspect the container for damage.
Most fire blankets will be located in kitchens and particular care must be taken to ensure these are not contaminated by cooking oils or grease as this may reduce their effectiveness in containing a fire.
If the blanket and container is in acceptable condition refold and replace.
If the blanket or container is damaged or in unacceptable condition replace and
label accordingly.
Ensure the container is securely fitted to the wall and can be easily accessed. The blanket should be fitted at a minimum height of 1.5 metres and maximum height of eye level.
The blanket must always be located in a position where it can be reached safely
without access being impeded by a possible fire involving any cooking appliances.

Hope that helps

Hi Chris, to b e precise "small extinguishers with a total weight up to and including 4kg should be mounted so as to postion the handle approximately 1.5m from the floor, but the carrying handle of larger, heavier extinguishers should be approximately 1 m from the floor" BS5306-3 : 2009 section 4.2 refers.

Regards
Graham

hi, commissioning service when new then general basic service for next 9 years then either replace at ten or have it refurbished depending on your choice and what you think is more cost-effective.
BS5306-3 annex D refers
Regards
Graham (IFEDA)

Hi the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 demands that the responsible person takes steps to ensure that fire protection products and associated products must be fit for purpose and properly installed and maintained in accordance wit the manufacturer's instructions OR THE RELEVENT BRITISH STANDARDS. In this cae the relevent BS is BS9990 : 2006 which requires annual wet tests "when the riser can be checked for leaks". How can the system be maintained to a suitable BS when air tests are not mentioned? A pedantic insurance company may say that the responoible person is failing in his/her duty by not getting a wet test done and use it as an excuse not to pay out in the event of a fire?
Regards
Graham (IFEDA)

No I don't know - sorry. Perhaps someone else on the forum can help?

Hi Annick, it all depends on the size and nature of the premises being checked and the number of employees being evacuated. human nature would indicate that if a 'time' was mentioned then it may become a matter of efficiency with some to try and cut corners to the detriment of the procedures and checks. Rather, think about all the elements of a fire drill pertinent to your premises. If you have a few hundred employees then they will obviously take more time to evacuate than just a handful as well as giving the fire marshall long enough to check that every one is out of the building and present at the fire points. Depending on the size of the building you may have fire marshalls for different areas checking rooms for occupants, making sure fire doors have closed etc none of which can be rushed.

Morning Brett, if I owned an end user company i would train somebody internally but how do you describe a competent person? The term we know and love is to be found in 5306-3 with all his/her training requirments to be found in annex A: but surely a 3/4 day initial training course will be way over the top for units that have no maintenance schedule?
A further consequence of wholesale adoption of these units will not only be no requirement for a servicing engineer but there will be no requirement for BAFE SP101/ST104 including the fact there will be no-one to subscribe to it in the first place.

Stephen, yes, a legal requirement under the FSO requires the repsonsible person or his/her representative to carry out fire safety duties which include "Ensure maintenance of the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices necessary for the safety of relevent persons". BS5306-3: 2009 advises not less thean monthly but the FSO guides still have fire extinguishers under the weekly check guide. These checks should be entered into a fire log book so that 1. the visiting fire officer can see that the checks have taken place and 2. if you find any problems you can log and track them and sign them off when you have had the servicing company in to deal with the issue.
Once a month would be fine as long as they are not in a harsh environment - or if they are in a particularly benign environment your fire risk assessor in his assessment can advise a longer checking period.

Worse case scenario; you don't check the equipment and there is a fire, someone like an insurance investigator will ask why did you not carry out your duties as stipulated by the FSO?
regards
Graham

For a start BS5306-3, the commissioning and maintenance of portable fire extinguishers - code of practice (having previously been updated in 2003, so the reference to a 2000 date is a little questionable) is now updated to 2009 It is up to you if you want to change from foam to water but though (usually) slightly dearer foam gives the user a cooling curtain of foam (think of a washing up bowl full of soap suds and how cool the suds are compareed to the water underneath) and a 6L foam is obviously easier to carry for staff who may find a 9L water rather cumbersome.
Brett may like comment on the rest of your email re requirements and prices?

Further to my last post, the following first paragraph (usually section 8) of all the FSO fire safety risk assessment guides for various premises states:- "Fire protection products and related services should be fit for their purpose and properly installed and maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions or a relevent standard". Doesn't this mean BS5306 parts 3 and 8 and with regards to H&S?

Hi Amber, hopefully you will have gleaned that you require a fire risk assessemnt specific to your premises.
However, as I like a good debate:- Surely the following from the FSO is an indication to refer to the relevent british standards and the manufacturers maintenance instructions as a 'suitable system of maintenance' if one is not to use these documents how will the Responsible Person (and hence the servicing company) prove the competence of the servicing company - and how will you meet the last three requirements of para 17?
Maintenance
17.—(1) Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons the responsible person must ensure that the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the premises under this Order or, subject to paragraph (6), under any other enactment, including
any enactment repealed or revoked by this Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.

BS5306-8 para 6.2 line 3 ..... at least 2 extinguishers....... line 7 ...... not less than 26A..... Whilst BS5306-8 might be argued to be a guidance document the FSO (which is legislation) goes on to say that portable fire equipment should be installed, commissioned and maintained in accordandance with the relevent standards.....

Hi Amber, what does your fire risk assessment say? What sort of equipment do you have e.g. small kitchen appliances, deep fat fryer, tea urn etc - if minimal a fire blanket may be sufficinet in that area. Your minimum fitting for the whole shop should be 26A with 2 units e.g. 2 X 6 litre foams but ideally you need someone to go along and have a look at all the potential risks (or none risks) hence the risk assessment.

Kind regards

Phil is correct, the answer to the original question is no - signs are required for all non automatic equipment such as extinguishers, blankets, fire hose reels and dry risers. Fire alarm call points do not need them but as indicated be guided by the fire risk assessment.

Hi Clair, in the first instance there is a legal requirement to have a fire risk assessment (FRA) done - who is your designated responsible person (think thats duty holder in Scotland?) It is then the FRA which will state if and how many fire extinguishers are required.
regards
Graham

"A recent study by one of the industry organisations found that in a study, 88% of fires in a workplace were put out by fire extinguishers."

I can second that, in a recent IFEDA survey of its members in 2008 87.4% of fires were put out by an extinguisher and of those incidents in 82% of them the F&R service was not even called. Just imagine the burden to the fire service if fire extinguishers were removed as a matter of policy - especially at a time of cut-backs and possible reduced response times.
Regards

Good morning, excuse my ignorance here but why do the above vans not come under the ADR regulations which as you know state:- Vehicles with a mass of up to and including 3.5 tonnes MUST be equiped with a minimum total capacity of 4kg of ABC powder? And the maintenance label MUST show the 'next service due date'.

"Forget thinking along the litigation argument route & 'box-ticking'; hands-on training for the use of Fire Extinguishers and Blankets may one day actually save a life."

Well said Phil - there was a similar debate on another forum/thread about just using DVDs - I think the fact we are dealing with potentially life (and business) saving equipment tends to get lost sometimes. DVDs are good for background information before the main 'hands-on' event. Wrong analogy I know but you wouldn't drve a car on the road having only watched Top gear.

Hi Neil, extinguishers are placed at a maximum travel distance of 60m (unless the FRA has stipulated less for some reason) - this way it is never more than 30m from a fire to an extinguisher (BS5306-8: 2000).

I think there should be a gentlemens' agreement to refer to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety Order) 2005 as the FSO. As Mike points out RRO could refer to other government legislation in other areas outside fire legislation.