Outsource Cleaning New Contract

Martin Brewer - Mills & Reeve
Online advisor - 71 posts

Brian, on the face of it this outsourcing will be covered by TUPE. This means that in the absence of an objection from any of them all of the 'assigned' employees will automatically transfer to the contractor when the cleaning contract starts.

TUPE does require information to be given to the affected employees through representatives, and, in some, but not all cases, consultation. TUPE doesn't set out any time limits for this process, each case has to be individually assessed.

At present pensions are excluded from the transfer but this will change on 6 April when new regulations come into effect. There is an article on this on the site. Essentially pension rights don't transfer but the new contractor will have to provide a pension of some description.

TUPE is a bit of a minefield so you should take specific advice if you have any doubts.

Steve Hudson
Member - 6 posts

if the reason for changing contractors was the cleaners themselves how do you stand with Tupe then. You know they are bad so why would you want to keep them.

Martin Brewer - Mills & Reeve
Online advisor - 71 posts

Steve, TUPE is specifically designed to protect employees on a transfer so the good and bad employees transfer and become the new contractors problem. For the customer in receipt of the service the trick is to ensure that you have a contract with robust output levels and that you monitor and enforce them. This will ensure that the new employer performance manages the staff to improve or, frankly, employs better staff to do the work.

Anonymous

we are taking over a contract soon which we have got because the company employing us are not happy with the cleaners they have in plave at present. They do not want to take on any of the cleaners that are carrying out the cleaning at the moment but are concerned about TUPE regulations. Is there any way round the gradual sacking of employees for minor offences and putting in new cleaners which you seem to of suggested in your post on 1st April 2005. Many Thanks

Anonymous

Brian, I hope you have laid down a very tight work specification. Best based on a weeks study of what the present staff actually do and what you actually want them to do. Many staff employed by an organisation do little pride actions ir if the curtains come off the runners they may put them back, light bulb not working they replace it. Not in the new contract then you will have to find someone to do it.

You will also need to appoint a person or persons to agree that the work is done correctly. These persons will have to agrue the point. Have you placed penalty clauses fir poor work?

Also look out for changes in their work practices, "Oh we nolonger undertake that work for H&S reasons" is a common cry.

Hope this helps

Anonymous

We currently have a contract with a cleaning company for 10 hours a week. We are disatisatified with the service and we would like to terminate the contract. Does TUPE apply here?

Thanks

Ines

Martin Brewer - Mills & Reeve
Online advisor - 71 posts

Ines, TUPE is very likely to apply. The trick here is to make sure you tightly specify your output requirements in the contract, that you can terminate quickly for poor performance and that you monitor the new contractor. You can't avoid TUPE. You have to work with it. Often poor performing employees results from poor management by the contractor so it's at that level you should look when determining the successful bidder.

Anonymous

We have a client who manages properties and employs contract cleaners on a twelve month contract. When the contract is due to end they go out to tender, if the current cleaner is not successful and we are they tell me that TUPE does not apply because the contract simply ends, and subsequently a new one begins. I beleive TUPE does apply because the services continue to the same spec but simply with another contractor and we should then take on the cleaner and manage them appropriately. I should add that we have employed many persons in similar circumstances and have applied TUPE in each case usually successfully, remedying any performance/standards issues by good manageament practice. Sadly I have also lost contracts and passed staff on under TUPE where we have been undercut on a tender. I have reviewed the DTI TUPE pointsthat are not covered: (transfers of a contract to provide goods or services where this does not involve the transfer of a business or part of a business;)and those that are covered (where a contract to provide goods or services is transferred in circumstances which amount to the transfer of a business or undertaking to a new employer.)

So is a cleaning contract considered a part of the business or an undertaking? Or is my client right and I am misinterpreting the law and have done for some time!

Anonymous

I have recently priced for a cleaning contract for a client who is unhappy with the current contractor. The main reason the client is not happy is that the cleaners who turn up don't speak any English and he finds it hard to communicate with them. If I am awarded the contract will I have to set these cleaners on because if I do the client will be back to square one.

Is it not possible for the client to terminate the current contractors contract and after a certain time has elapsed start a new one with a new contractor? If so what would this time span have to be?

Thanks

Nigel

Philip Jeffs
Member - 287 posts

I recently changed cleaning contractors, and TUPE was involved.

The new firm were excellent, and dealt with all of it in a very professional manner. I was kept informed but had little to do in the process. The staff they took on seem to be very happy, and ironically seem harder working on our new contract than they were with the previous one.

If anyone is in East Anglia or the home counties I'd be happy to give a recommendation. Email me on philip.jeffs@atpi.com

Anonymous

we are employed by a cleaning company,they have lost their cleaning contract and because the company has no other work in the area we are being kept on at the place we clean, but joining a agency my sister has worked there for 8 years i have worked there 3.the place of work say we have to send a letter of resignation to the company we work for, and reaply for our jobs is this right.

Anonymous

If our contract has run out with our current contract cleaners are we still affected by the tupe law?

Anonymous

We have suffered poor performance from our cleaning contractor for several months now. The quality of staff employed by the management is poor partly due to our isolated location. We have two options after terminating existing contract - take the work on in-house or employ another contractor. I am now told we have to take on the existing staff under TUPE - surely there must be another way?

Trevor Muddimer
Member - 40 posts

Tupe applies to protect the workers in contract transfers.
However, if after taking over the task and assessing the contract 'in action' - the incomming contractor wishes to shed excess staff (as against underperforming staff) which party carries the redundancy costs? Assuming this to be the new contractor or the client via new contractor.
We could debate the pros / cons and our experiences of outsourcing another day perhaps?

Anonymous

I have put our cleaning contract out for tender and requested TUPE details from my encumbent supplier. They refused saying that they were not legally required to give out this information until the tender process was complete. How can other companies give realistic quotes if they don't have tupe details?

Anonymous

when acting for the purchasor of a business, what type of questions do we ask the seller to provide in the due diligence questionair under (TUPE 2006)?

Sian Pearce
Member - 3 posts

have put our cleaning contract out for tender and requested TUPE details from my encumbent supplier. They refused saying that they were not legally required to give out this information until the tender process was complete. How can other companies give realistic quotes if they don't have tupe details?

Anonymous

This is more of a Question than a comment. Here goes. I was wondering, in order to get a cleaning contract what type of insurance one would have to have? Say I have my own cleaning crew and want to clean up in new construction what kind of insurance is requiered of me?

Rajesh Shah
Member - 1 post

We are a contract valeting comopmany to the motor trade, supplying and managing self employed sub contractor valeters to motor dealerships.

One of our customers is extremely dissatisfied with their existing office/showroom cleaning company and in particular the cleaner that they have on site.

They have asked us to take over this contract. However, what are the TUPE implication of this? My main issues are:

1. Is the current cleaner protected under TUPE even though my customer does not want her cleaning for them?

2. We operate our business on a self employed sub contractor model. If we decide to take the cleaner on, what happens if she doesn't want to work on these terms?

3. I have existing valeters on site who could easily work an extra couple of hours to do this job. Is this a good enough reason for my customer to terminate the contract with the cleaning company by way of a cost saving by giving it to someone who is already on site doing something else?

PLEASE HELP!!!

Rajesh

angela cunningham
Member - 6 posts

i am a contract cleaner contracted at a car dealership the car dealership has ended the contract stating that they want to employ their own in house cleaners i have applied for the position and my current employer has said that if i am successful in my application then i will not be entitled to a redundancy pay out as i would tupe over. is this right

Carl Manning
Member - 7 posts

Anglea the situation as you describe it would mean you wouldn't need to apply for a new positon as TUPE would apply, indeed is intended for!

You shouldn't be entitled to a redundancy payment as you would not be being made redundant! However you raise a point that you are being asked ot formally apply for what is your present role, unless there are major organisational changes or to responsibilites, you shoudl be covered by TUPE legisaltion. it is an emotive subject and my past experience leads me to the standpoint that TUPE is not very well explained to those most affected, because the people ringing the changes don't really understand the implications.

angela cunningham
Member - 6 posts

thanks for your reply carl but doesnt tupe only apply when there is a tranfer of all the cleaners and not just one individual as their are four cleaners all together,as i said in my post im not sure weather i have been successful in my application at the moment, but i have also applied elsewhere for employment but lets say that my contract ends on 30th april for example after that date then i am unemployed so surely im entitled to redundancy from the cleaning company, if then the dealership get back in touch and offer me the position then im still entitled to redundancy because even though i would be working in the same place doing the same job but less hours with a new employer . its so confuseing help i think im going mad

Trevor Muddimer
Member - 40 posts

I agree with Carl, TUPE is designed for such cases.
In general, it protects the workers when the 'contract holder' changes.

I suggest you discuss it with the dealership.
It is possible that they are unaware of TUPE,
but they can seek advice once they are made aware.

Please let us know the outcome.

Trevor

James Fairchild
Member - 171 posts

Angela,

You may find this site http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/forum more helpful for employee advice.

_if_ you don't get the existing job offered to you, then I would say that you have a tribunal claim against both the cleaning company and the dealership.

Carl Manning
Member - 7 posts

Trevor is right the delaership will probablynot have any dealings with TUPE issues.

There are lots of articles on here ref the amendments to TUPE.

You are raising a legitimate query and any organisation that has looked at outsourcing should have looked at the effects on employees as employee consultation is covered by other legislation as well as TUPE

Without wanting to sound rude, the normal reason people try and hide behind re-advertising is to give an opportuntity to prune the deadwood. Not an option I would advocate, manage the personnel under the existing conditions and tackle any performance issues head on. In your case makign th emove back in house is bold in this day and age, so ask what the dealerships drivers were? You obviously don't work alone, so could it the contract has not been managed as effectively as the dealership would like?

Personally I still feel your situation as described means your employment is covered by TUPE. Good luck

angela cunningham
Member - 6 posts

thank for your post and you are not being rude but i know where your coming from , the dealership want their own in house cleaners as they have said the cleaning company charges are expensive and they can employ in house at a fraction of the cost which i dont blame them, i think i am starting to learn how it works, here goes if i transfer over to the dealership then i wont be entitled to redundacy ,but the dealership has to honour my present contract ie my hours , rate of pay and my status as a supervisor, and also my holiday entitlement .is that how it works ? i think i might be getting my sanity back lol

James Fairchild
Member - 171 posts

Yes that is right, and _if_ the dealership subsequently dismiss you, you would be entitled to claim redundancy or unfair dismissal as appropriate (as though the transfer never happened).

Comment about cleaning, I spoke with a friend who is a teacher, and he told of all sorts of problems with their contract cleaners, most serious of all being that when any ad hoc cleaning is needed, the school staff need to call the cleaning company's office, rather than speaking direct to the cleaners!

angela cunningham
Member - 6 posts

thank you for your post i knew i would get my sanity back the tupe law should be made quite clear coz its a hard one to follow, and yes no doubt many companies have the same problem with differant contracts but thankfully this wasnt the case for me just an over charging cleaning boss or so the dealership think , i have now been successfully offered the post just waiting to see if the contract is with the same benefits i get now ie holiday entitlement, years of service etc i would like to thank you all for your comments they really helped.

angela cunningham
Member - 6 posts

i have now been told that the post offered to me is at a differant location but within the dealership what happens now? does tupe still apply .just when i thought i had got my sanity back, no such luck i think it would have been easier to take the redundancy and look for a completley differant job .

James Fairchild
Member - 171 posts

I really think you should go to a website dedicated to helping employees - http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/forum seems a popular one.

However.... I would say that when you break it down, you have the TUPE transfer, and _then_ a request from your employer to work at a different location.

This would be dealt with in exactly the same way as a request for you to go to a different location under your old contract.