Baptism

Ray Palmer
Member - 1 post

As a deacon of a pentacostal church I would be also interested in any comments submitted. Should a risk assessment be the same level as public swimming bath?

Anonymous

As I understand it, the process involves the person being baptised being supported by the Minister during lowering into and raising from the water. In these circumstances, with the Minister being stood firmly in the pool ( waist deep or thereabouts) I feel the risk to the person being baptised is minimal, and the person would be taken back out of the water at the first signs of distress.

Liz Harris
Member - 4 posts

I am not a lawyer but I would think that the public swimming pool is a good analogy. As a public building with, hopefully, large numbers of people present I would have expected that a suitably qualified First Aider or medical professional would be on duty so I think it quite reasonable to advise this. If not legally, morally, the church would hold the duty of care for the person being baptised - I always say that Health & Safety within the church should be seen as a matter of the Christian duty of care for ones fellow humans rather than just strict application of the law.

Anonymous

If you are really worried use a life jacket

Anonymous

As a Christian organisation that specialises in giving legal advice and risk assessment information I could say that we have resource sheets and would give you information on this - contact us on 01908-641641. I would also have to say that it sounds like this is driven by an insurance company or worried member of the congregation and that this particular activity is taking the subjective art of risk assessment to a new depth (excuse the pun) of ridicule!

Anonymous

Working for Architects who have dealt with a number of full emersion baptismal pools you may be interested in a recent incedent that was reported to us. A lady had been baptised and slipped and fell on plastic sheeting laid to protect the floor finishes to the side of the pool exit. Her partner subsequently threatened legal action for injury. As far as I am aware the case was not persued however it raises what I believe to be an area of high risk that should be assessed. Suitability of floor finishes in the pool and adjacent to the pool exits, aids to entry and exit including fixed rails or personal help etc. Our advise is that ideally two people assist with the baptism in the pool, two people with suitable non slip footware assist people entering and leaving the pool, floor finishes around the pool are non slip and people are on hand with equipment (such as mops)to remove excess water from around the pool after the baptisms.

The other main issue is the risk of people or objects (e.g. chairs, electrical equipment etc.) falling into the pool. Protection requirements should be risk assessed both when the building is in use or unoccupied.

Anonymous

Having witnessed many such baptisms over 4 decades, the usual practice is that a friend with a towel stands alongside, to dry their face afterwards and wrap them against cold.

The pastor doing the baptism places the candidate under the water for less than a second. The biggest risk is that he cannot lift the candidate up again: it is therefore prudent to have an second person in the pool to assist, especially with heavier candidates. It is also a good idea if the pastor hands a small dry face cloth or small towel to the candidate immediately they come out of the water. This prevents the risk of spluttering, or gasping for breath, and is much more dignified.

Anonymous

A risk asssessment must surely be that - an assessment of the risk.

How many people have sustained serious injury or died as a result of being baptised in this way?

How many people are baptised by complete immersion every year?

What is the percentage of injury/death?

I believe the answer will prove that people are perfectly able to cope with this activity without the intervention of H & S rules.

Anonymous

I am involved in a Church in Scotland which practices full immersion.

Risk considerations are important. Baptismal tanks in churches can be heated with electric emmersion heaters and it is vital that the risk of electrocution from the water heater and any surrounding appliances (heaters, guitar amps trailing cables etc) is considered and isolation action taken prior to the actual baptism. There is also a risk when comming out of the tank dripping wet and slipping, and electocution risk from appliances in changing areas need to be considered. Our tank has slip resistant finish. It is actually quite difficult to immerse someone as the water pressure acts against this.

Anonymous

A good place to start is to contact the Baptist Union and check what guidelines they have issued. They are as aware of Health and Safety issues as any good employer, and this area will not have been ignored.

Anonymous

All good advice, this, although some of it a bit OTT.

However, no-one addresses the following issues :-

There is bending and, to some extent, lifting, involved on the part of the person performing the baptism. Has he/she been properly trained in manual handling/posture techniques? How is the "client" to be lowered? There may be some posture type issues to consider there.

And what about the cleanliness/temperature of the water? Is the client allowed to hold his nose to prevent an ingress of water to his nasal passage? Has the water been tested for biological contamination (Legionella? Other?). Has the temperature been tested to ensure an adequate comfort zone?

Finally, what facilities are available following the baptism? Is the client just left to fend for himself, or are there proper changing facilities (privacy/slips,trips/etc.)?

This may seem OTT to some, but if you're going to do a job ..........

Anonymous

Has everyone forgotten the original question ?

Who holds the duty of care to the person being baptised ?

There is a reason for baptism, so the answer is self explanitory, is it not ?

Anonymous

Have you seen the Billy Connelly film " The man who sued God" !

Anonymous

If considered necessary at all - advise the person being baptised to hold their breath and the Minister performing the baptism not to hold theirs.

John Flannigan
Member - 2 posts

What a load of old nonsense! The nanny state gone mad. An adult with his nose pinched is perfectly capable of holding his breath under water for at least 30 seconds. Risk for the short time under the water is minimal to non existant. I suppose the points made about contamination, slipping on wet surfaces and protection after the event are well taken, and I would have thought the secular risk would almost certainly be held by the church involved, while the religious risk would be a matter of faith?!! Get a life.

Anonymous

The others above have covered the main hazards for this activity and I would suggest that a generic general risk and manual handling assessment incorporating these points should be sufficient for most cases. Exceptions might include sea baptism - which some churches practice. The major denominations may well have published guidance on this issue. As to lifeguards, this is unnecessary but first-aiders are always useful to have around. Adult baptism is consensual and for those under age the permission of the parent/guardian should have been given. As to duties of care, these will be with the church authorities, the person(s) in control of the premises at the time (eg where premises are borrowed or hired for the occasion) and those conducting the baptism - all under the Health and Safety at Work, etc Act 1974 (where employment is involved), Occupiers Liability Act and Common Law but will relate generally to avoiding negligence, providing a safe environment and carrying out the activity safely and with competence.

Anonymous

As a Baptist minister, if I don't take adequate precautions, am I likely to end up in hot water!

My role of thumb is not to hold the candidate under for any longer than it takes to say the Lords Prayer.

Anonymous

My daughter is a swimming pool lifeguard at an open air pool used occasionally by one of the local Baptist Churches for baptism by total immersion. Lifeguards are on hand for the Baptism services, as much to protect the swimming pool as the candidates. But the only risks that she could see were if, for example, the candidate couldnt swim and panicked or if there was a pre-existing medical condition, epilepsy or angina.

It depends how quickly you can say the Lords Prayer as to how long an immersion that would be!

David Sharp - Workplace Law Network
Online advisor - 119 posts

Charlie - Re your original question, I have to confess that we at the Workplace Law Network were surprised this subject would generate as much interest as it has! I'm surprised that more people haven't taken L. Robertson's approach, which seems to consider that the risks of anything happening are fairly low in the great scheme of things and that some of the debate here might be overkill (if that's the right phrase to use).

Does anyone know of any statistics relating to accidents which occur during baptisms?

Anonymous

Has anyone any comments on baptism in streams and rivers? There are only 9 freshwater sites which have been designated as safe for bathing. Is it resonable to assume that any immersion non-designated waters carries a risk of Weil's disease (if near the bank) or salmonella or E coli or parasitic infections etc? Is there a risk from unanticipated pollution (farms,wild fowl, sewage works etc)?

There's a nasty stomach bug going around our country vullage. Does this mean that these bugs are in the pleasant babbling brook which might unwittingly be a site for a baptism?

Anonymous

Just today I saw a news article of a congregation in Texas preparing a funeral for their pastor who made the mistake of taking an microphone into the baptismal with him and was electrocuted. I'm sorry I didn't catch the name of the church. I trust it will be all over the Web if one looks for the incident, noting the date of 10/30/05.

Anonymous

Hi, I've written up a page of suggestions in this area:

http://ied.gospelcom.net/electric-safety.php

and would value any feedback on this

best wishes


Tony

Phil Terzza
Member - 5 posts

What a subject to get embroiled in..... Surely God is watching over you as it happens?

Phil Hicks
Member - 1 post

Well if God was watching over Pastor Lake in Texas then He obviously wanted to take him home.

Lets do our job properly and protect folks. I found this site precisely because we are doing our post Texas risk assessment.

Tony, you havent covered shocks from the installed pool equipment itself. If an underwater light seal fails, water will reach the bulb. Surprisingly they frequently continue to run! If a pump seal fails water may reach the winding. In the Texas tragedy a heater shell failed and the fuse did not blow. All these indicate that ANY electrical equipment in contact with the water should be isolated before the service starts ie before anyone touches the water. Also these items should have annual ground checks and visual inspection.

Anonymous
Member - 28 posts

I was baptised 3 years ago this May. The church I go to used a 'portable' pool. There were 2 people in the water. I can't remember what was on the carpet to protect it, but if it was plastic sheeting, it wasn't too slippy due to most of the water falling of me as I climbed out. Our church had to improvise by using a chair on the outside and the inside as the pool didn't have integral steps. It was safe though.

Anne McAllister
Member - 115 posts

John The Baptist has a lot to answer for.

Anonymous
Member - 28 posts

Ok, the water in the pool used for my baptism was heated by means of heaters that could be safely submersed in water which were actually put in the night before and the pool was also covered. These were removed before church started. My pastor didn't say the Lord's prayer (church is non denominational). I can't remember what words were used. Someone has also mentioned parental permission, 2 of the youngsters being baptised were my pastors youngest and the father of the other child was also in the pool being the person assisting with the submersing and lifting of those being baptised. For getting dry and changed afterwards, we used the toilets and there are seperate facilites for men and women and there is an area between the door and cubicles which was more than big enough for changing.

David Wooldridge
Member - 13 posts

As a Christian, and as a Health & Safety professional I have found all the above comments very informative, humorus and entertaining.
However, it should be remembered that there are levels of responsibility in all aspects of life, as well as the results of going on the wrong side of lawful neglect.
I think this debate has raised some very interesting items I'd never before dared to consider. I'm rather pleased I wasn't held under why the pastor said the Lords Prayer!!!!

Geoff Porteous
Member - 20 posts

Surely all these adult people volunteer to do this !! There would not be a judge in the land that would hold any culpability against those performing this ceremony if they did everything "Reasonable" to make it safe, as adults that volunteer to do this they are aware of the procedure of being emmersed and accept the risks associated with it !! i think the defence in law would be "Volenti non fit injuria"
Risk assessment Pah !!

paul morley
Member - 3 posts

It wouldn't be very Christian to sue in the very unlikely event of an accident. You are more likely to be involved in an accident getting to the church, so put your faith in God, and GO FOR IT !