Fire Extinguishers

Anonymous

Shaun,
British Standards information (including the standards themselves) is online at http://bsonline.techindex.co.uk/. You can search the site by keyword or by entering in the code for specific standards you are looking for, but you only get the barest details.
You may know that BSI members can buy British Standards at a significant discount. You don't need to be a BSI member to carry out a fuller search on their site, but you will need to register (which is free).
The standard you would appear to be looking for is BS 5306-1:1976 Fire extinguishing installations and equipment on premises - hydrant systems, hose reels and foam inlets, though this has been partially replaced. It costs £34 for BSI members, £68 for non members.

Phil West
Member - 2 posts

Could you please advise me how often a fire extinguisher should be checked by a competent person? The company that I deal with at present is stating that they should be checked every six months. I believe this to be an overkill and was looking at extending the time from 12 months to 18 months and maybe then to 24 months as there have been no problems identified at inspection. When an extinguisher has been discharged accidentally, it is replaced immediately and the used one brought back into service at the earliest opportunity. Many thanks.

Tina Renshaw
Member - 3 posts

British Standard BS5306 Part 3 2000, recommends that all portable fire extinguishers are subjected to an annual maintenance inspection and service, by a competenent person. It also recommends a monthly and six-monthly visual inspection that can be done locally on-site by a non-competent person. The qualification for compency in this instance is that the person (engineer) shall have attained a prescribed certificate of cempetency following a recognised training course run by an accredited British fire extinguisher training establishment, under a quality assurance critera. The certificate is awarded under the title of QAS 3169 part 3 and 4. On the annual service visit each extinguisher is stripped down and the contents empied into a bucket for re-use or disposal, depending upon condition. The exterior/interior of the extinguisher is checked for signs of corrosion and interior for signs of split/lifted linings, the CO2 cartridge is weighed and discharge hose and valve assembly checked for correctness of actions etc. The whole lot reassembled using new washers and seals where required, and the label signed off stating the date of that service visit.

This action varies slightly depending upon type but applies generally to all gas cartridge and stored pressure type extinguishers. However it does not apply to CO2 extinguishhers, which are sealed under high pressure. These are weighed accurately against their known full weight critera, which is stamped upon the neckband.



Once every five years each extinguisher (except CO2) is subjected to a discharge test, wherein the contents are expelled under the normal operating pressure and technique of the extinguisher, and then refilled as per a service visit.



When an extinguishjer has been discharged it has to be refilled or replaced as soon as possible, (bearing it mind that its purpose cannot be fulfilled while it is empty). Most larger type premises carry a small stock of spares so as to be able to replace the odd one or two during the year if necessary, thereby avoiding the costly call-out charge for an engineer to come on site to refill one extinguisher outside the normal annual service visit.

Note: You cannot use the part contents of any extinguisher once it has been parly discharged.



Health & Safety Division

Casella Winton

www.casellawinton.co.uk

020 8296 5785

Ian Kerchell
Member - 2 posts

Is it illegal to tamper with or misuse a fire extinguisher(e.g. let a fire extinguisher off as a joke).

Anonymous

It is an offense to misuse an extinguisher under the Health & Safety at Work Act with criminal prosecution being a sanction.

Extinguishers must be serviced annually - 6 months is overzealous unless in an industrial environment of such a nature that the extinguishers are more prone to damage or deterioration

Anonymous

What are your views on the provision of fire extinguishers in company cars?

Yannos Orphanos
Member - 2 posts

Tina,
In your explanation of the annual inspection required, you state that these do not apply to CO2 portable extinguishers.
What exactly applies to this type of extinguishers?
Also, do the CO2 extinguishers have to be fitted with pressure gauge or not?

Kevin Deveson
Member - 13 posts

Fire extinguishers in cars - tempting fate. Fire usually too much for small units to cope with - far more economic human wise to keep driver away from danger...hopefully if they are able.

Richard Adamek
Member - 6 posts

Regarding British Standards Access, it should be possible to view these on line at a subscribing library, in Norfolk, all libraries now have internet access and a terminal can be booked and logged in by the staff so that you can see the entirety of a standard rather than just the precis which is enabled for non subscribers on line, priceless, as this lets you see if the content is releavent enough to purchase the standard rather than playing the lottery !

Andy Sykes
Member - 5 posts

Does the 5 yr discharge apply to foam and powder? if so can this be done on site or do new extinguishers need to be purchased? Thanks

Craig Rowland
Member - 4 posts

With regard to Co2 extinguishers; they are required to have a hydraulic test every 10 years, under the standards already mentioned.

chris chris
Member - 5 posts

that it a hydro test it is done with water and pressure

jassim almaraghi
Member - 1 post

i would like to buy a dry powder fire extinguisher and used in highly corrosive & humid location.
how can i choose the suitable fire extinguisher that withstand this environment

les potter
Member - 23 posts

Tina wrote' Once every five years each extinguisher (except CO2) is subjected to a discharge test, wherein the contents are expelled under the normal operating pressure and technique of the extinguisher, and then refilled as per a service visit.'

whilst this is partially correct, it does not apply to primary sealed portable appliances, they are only discharge tested on a 10 yearly basis too. Currently the only company to supply primary sealed cartridge extinguishers is Nu-Swift

les potter
Member - 23 posts

Jasim wrote'i would like to buy a dry powder fire extinguisher and used in highly corrosive & humid location.
how can i choose the suitable fire extinguisher that withstand this environment'

the application and location of all portable appliance should ideally be located by a proffessional person. the best advice i could give would be to locate the correct fire extinguisher that is consummate to the risk, via the risk assessment process. in that way you will have the correct size and type of extinguisher,reccomended by a proffessionally compitent person.

As to the dry powder part of your comment.
while dry powder is designed to extinguish classes A B C and electrical fires. it also reduces visibility thus hindering escape, it can cause severe breathing difficulties when inhaled, and due to the content of ammonium phosphate, can burn the lungs and stomach if digested.

Hanna Rees-Jones
Member - 1 post

I am trying to find out if there is a legal minimum requirement for the number of fire extinguishers required for the number of people employed / present in a wokplace.

We seem to have an awful lot and this is obviously a good thing but I want to make sure that should any need replacing or be faulty we do not fall under the legal requirement.

les potter
Member - 23 posts

the calculation as guided in BS 5306 is to take the area and x 0.065 therefore as an example 400 sq metres x 0.065 = 26 this is the minimum A rating required for this area, additional equipment is then added to make it consumnate to the risk ie Carbon doixide for electrical cover and a fire blanket in a kitchen for example.

if you employ 5 or more you must have by law have a fire risk assessment in place and the person who carries out the assessment should be able to tell you if you have to many and/or if they are located correctly.

the rire risk assessment is required under the regulatory reform ( fire safety ) order 2005

Holly James
Member - 4 posts

Hello Members,

Thought I'd let you know we have a brand new course running in March 2008 called the Fire Risk Management Workshop. It is a one day course being held at the MI Conference Centre in London.

If you would like any further information, please call me on 01223 431 072.

Thanks,
Holly

Bob Brown
Member - 2 posts

Hi just read all of the posts - I have a small business with 2/3 staff! - we have been shafted by a fire engineeer annually - discharging all (10) extinguishers each time he calls - please! - what is the legal situation - do I have to have the extinguishers checked each year -what if I dont?

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

The previous comments regarding premises area / extinguisher provision is technically correct, but slightly misleading. The "A" rating calculates out at "26" in respect of a 400 sq. metre area, however be clear that this does not mean 26 fire extinguishers!!

The "A" rating indicates the extinguishing power required to deal with a small carbonasceous (Type A) fire in its incipient stages. As a general rule of thumb, 1 water based extinguisher per 200 square metres is the norm and there should be a minimum of 2 units provided in any workplace, except where the floor area does not exceed 100 square metres.

Water based fire extinguishers, 9 litres capacity or a smaller size with additives, are rated at "13A". It therefore follows that in any workplace 2 of these units would be required, and additional units for every 200 square metres.

In respect of other types of fire, there are Foam, Carbon Dioxide and Powder type extinguishers available. These have "B" and "F" fire ratings. A fire risk assessment should identify where these other types are required.

In general, the provision of 1 x Water based and 1 CO2 type (2 Kilogram size) fire extinguishers are often the best combination to adequately form a fire fighting point within most workplaces containing no special risks.

Extinguisher points should be located adjacent to the exits from the workplace and no person should have to travel more than 30 metres in any direction to reach an extinguisher.

Maintenance is simple. Weekly visual checks by the users to identify any damage or tampering, and an annual test and examination by a qualified engineer.

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Bob Brown
Member - 2 posts

Is the annual test a legal requirement if you only have 2 staff?

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Yes, it is a requirement for any workplace.

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Iain Sanderson
Member - 64 posts

I agree with Mike the test is relevant to the equipment not people.

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Just a thought for Bob Brown..........

If you have only 2 or 3 staff, why do you have so many fire extinguishers? Do you have a large premises?10 fire extinguishers seems to be a fairly large number and an annual discharge may not actually be required dependent upon the type of extinguisher installed. You might be being "shafted" to quote your post !

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Chris Johnson
Member - 5 posts

Good to see some sound advice getting out there.

We must remember that the 13A/200SQ M is for an empty building!

I found a warehouse, that was filled to the roof with spirits (not Ghosts!) and only had Water Fire Extinguishers. 6L AFFFoam units often give 21A (with some at 27A), also a B Fire Rating for flammable liquids (and liquefiable plastics). They also have a 35kv Test for use on Live Electrical Equipment. C02 Have a B Rating, but only knock down a fire, the gas floats away and the fire comes back. These now can have a 55B Rating (not 34B) in a 2kg unit, fitted with the new safety horns. Safer, Lighter and more effective.

After almost 36 years in Special Hazards Fire Protection and the last 25 years specializing in Portable Fire Extinguishers, I have never known any Fire Extinguisher in normal use that requires Test Discharge every year. You need to report these crooks to BAFT.

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

The trouble is that owners don't know how many; what type and how old their portable fire equipment is. It's not difficult to make a mini-file on each and every extinguisher, give it a number. Service contracts change over the life of an extinguisher and it's important that duty-holders can stand over their fire protection measures - especially in front of a judge.

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

This thread reminds me of an interesting incident that occurred a few weeks ago when I was out walking my dog in a local park - as I entered the park I saw a dry powder extinguisher that had been discharged and discarded in the field. Thinking that it looked like it may have come from a local petrol station and convenience store I walked past it and noted that a dry powder extinguisher was missing from the mobile rack - as the store was very busy I decided to email the Customer Service Dept who promptly replied that they had contacted the store and it did not belong to them.
This intrigued me so a few days later when I was in the park I made a closer inspection of the extinguisher and it had an asset number on it and a company logo so I rang the extinguisher servicing company and they confirmed that it did in fact belong to this petrol station/ convenience store. I again contacted the Customer Service Dept and they confirmed again that it did not belong to them - so I wrote to the Chief Executive and he rep[lied that he would ask his Executive Management Team to investigate - shortly after this the extinguisher disappeared and I had another email from the Customer Services Dept informing me that it was definately not their extinguisher and the reason that one was missing from the rack on the forecourt was because one was faulty and awaiting repair.
Clearly this company did not believe "that every little bit helps" - I still await an explanation from the Executive Management Team.

linda fagan
Member - 2 posts

i have a powder fire extingisher in a very small shop , it gets serviced yearly by realm (realmfire.co.uk), this time around they came when i was not here only a staff member and replaced it with a new one, they didnt leave my old one to prove it had been replaced and i did not authorise replacement, im guessing they replaced it as its 5 years old however it has never been used and was in very good condition. are they right to replace it or are they just trying to get extra cash from me, as i never authorised replacement so will need to pay or can i demand the old one back again? is it ok to have a 5 year old extingisher? or do you have to change it?

and help would be nice
many thanks

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

Linda,
There are a number of reasons that the company could have replaced your dry extinguisher but being 5 years old is not one of them.
Firstly, you need to look at the contract that you have with the company and see that there is nothing in the small print that allows them to exchange equipmemt without getting prior permission. Even if there is something in the contract - any reputable company should let you know the reason that they have replaced it eg corrosion, damage, non complient etc.
Secondly you don't say what type of extinguisher they have replaced it with - was it another dry powder or was it water - whilst dry powder is quite a good fire fighting medium it's not the first choice you would normally find in a shop. This may have been the reason they changed it if it's a different type, but what ever the reason, they should have asked you first and my advice would be to get them to bring the old one back and explain why they changed it and ascertain if they are charging you a fair price and make sure that it complies with current standards.
Hope this helps.

Alan

Phil Martin
Member - 8 posts

Linda,
The general rule is that extinguishers should have a “Basic” service every year and an “Extended” service every 5 years to comply with BS5306 Part 3. A Dry Powder would require an extended service which would include a test discharge. Test discharging and refilling a DP extinguisher is a messy and time consuming operation. There are also quality issues with some extinguishers. The simple solution offered by most extinguisher service organisations is to “Offer” a service exchange. They take your old extinguisher and leave you with a factory recondition one. This is to everyone’s advantage but the service company should make this clear at the time, obtain authority and recorded it on the service report. Your service company may have acted in good faith.
Phil

linda fagan
Member - 2 posts

hi alan, thanks for that info, the company says it was "due test" as it was 5 years old and the automatically replace them when they are "due test" , i told them that being 5 years old that is not a reason for replacement. they said the charge is £35+ vat to test it but as im on a street where powder extingisher cannot be tested, they need to take it away to test, so they charge £35 + vat for the brand new one instead of testing the old one, so i guess its fair enough.
thanks again

Nicholas Batten
Member - 28 posts

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 says that any facilities, equipment and devices provided under the order must be subject to a suitable system of maintenance and should be maintaned in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair. The guidance to the Order says that fire extinguishers "will require periodic inspection, maintenance and testing. Depending on local conditions such as the likelihood of vandalism or the environment where the extinguishers are located, carry out brief checks to ensure that they remain serviceable. In normal conditions a monthly check should be enough. Maintenance by a competent person should be carried out annually." British Standards are not "legal requirements" as such.

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

I was under the impression that EU regulations on fire extinguishers EN3 was introduced in 1996, requiring all units to be signal red in colour with coloured band signifying the type of extinguisher.
Black CO2 could remain in service until 2006 and blue dry powder could remain in service until 2016 before they had to be replaced.
Why does Lindas' service company test DP Exts on the street anyway? The discharge test can be carried out by discharging contents into a special bag to prevent atmospheric contamination.
After inspection of the valve assembly etc, etc, the original charge can be returned to the unit or, if 'dozed', a fresh charged. But Hi, Linda, if you're happy ...

M Tucker
Member - 5 posts

Just a small point that I would appreciate comments on. We have three small shops, have done the fire risk assessments as required and I can see no real need for any extinguishers. The shops are all under 500 sq ft each.

I have had any number of so called "experts" telling me what I "should" do and what is a "recommendation", but no-one will tell me what I HAVE to do. One even wanted me to pay him £900 and then berated me for not having "a fire warning system in place like the law says" (My comment that shouting out the word FIRE was a warning system really wound him up)

We have no naked flames, all electrics are tested, no smoking etc, etc etc.. I know an extinguisher would be nice, but where does it say I must have one.

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

An interesting point and one which has certainly been in the news a lot lately. The reality is that if you have done the risk assessment correctly and come to the conclusion that you don't need a fire extinguisher then you are complying with the law no matter what the experts tell you. The only people that can really tell you if you need fire extinguishers are the Fire Authority and if you have done the RA correctly they should agree with you. Your insurer may also have something to say on the matter if you have a fire and they think that a means of fighting the fire could have prevented further damage so you may want to just check with them. Even if you are told that you need a fire extinguisher I have met some very well informed persons in my career that have made a very good case for a bucket of water.
You are also right on the fire warning system and if you have a very simple premise then you may not need a fire alarm system and shouting would be acceptable.
That is the reality of the situation but please allow me to give you a word of advice - I have two fire extinguishers and a fire blanket in my home - why, because I know that in a fire situation they are more effective than a bucket of water and whilst I have the skills to use a bucket of water if I am not at home my wife could use them fairly effectively. For the cost of the equipment which is about £25 per extinguisher and £10 for the blanket I think that its a good investment to protect my home.
I hope that helps. Alan

M Tucker
Member - 5 posts

Thanks Alan - at last a word of sense.

Regarding the home, I have to admit that we do have both a bucket of water and a fire blanket as well as an extinguisher - but that is a choice I am happy to make as my family are far more important to me than a bit of stock. I do draw the line at being told what to do. My "risk assessment" at home is very different.

Frank Allman
Member - 5 posts

Hello all, I am a new member and have found this site by accident but must say I am really impressed with the forums - very informative indeed. I have been told that portable fire extinguishers have a life of 10 years after which they must be replaced could someone confirm this?

Phil Martin
Member - 8 posts

Frank,
Broadly speaking extinguishers have an unlimited life. Some types (CO2) need to be hydraulically tested. If the extinguisher is regularly serviced this would be at ten years from new. That’s probably where the “Ten Years” you mention comes from. Because hydraulic testing is a specialist operation it can not be done on site. Common practice is for service companies to offer a service exchange. You get a second hand cylinder which has been tested, fitted with a new valve, repainted and refilled. Often these are indistinguishable from new apart from the date stamp on the cylinder bodies.

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

The (non profit) website FireNet has a fire safety forum that is good for queries www.fire.org.uk

Some bullet point answers to various points above:
- Coloured extinguishers not to EN3 did not have to be replaced in 1996, that was a con spread widely by extinguisher suppliers to sell new kit. A pre EN3 extinguisher can remain in service so long as they are safe for use and parts are available to allow correct servicing
- Not since the days of chemical operated extinguishers such as open stopper soda acid extinguishers has annual test discharging been required. It's 5 years for water,foam, powder & wet chemical & 10 years for CO2 (as part of the overhaul)
- New extinguishers are not needed every 5 years, it's just the company would rather sell you a new extinguisher than the time taken and couple of quid in parts to discharge and fill your existing one. However a service exchane of extinguishers is OK as long as the price is nearer that of a recharge than a new item
- Every 12 months for a basic service,there's enough case law to back up the need
-You can in theory risk assess away the need for extinguishers, but the official government guidance booklets(including those for small premises) point out that it is very very rare not to require one to fulfil the requirements of the Fire Safety Order
- For small premises a multi-purpose ABC powder extinguisher is best (as per the govt guide) as you can cover all risks with a small inexpensive unit. In fact reference is now made to the aerosol 'limited life' powder extinguishers as you buy them & only do use checks until it expires after 5 years and you replace it, this works out far cheaper than a reusable one as it costs as much to service it each year as it does to buy the limited life unit (which you only do every 5 years)
- Lots of fire companies try & pull the wool over your eyes and help perpetrate the urban myths spread by well meaning H&S advisers who are influenced, by them. If on doubt ask me or post on Firenet & we'll ensure you aren't stung (& the advice is free!)

Anthony Buck
Fire Safety Consultant
Portable Extinguisher Advisor & Historian

Jon Butt
Member - 2 posts

Anthony is extremely knowledgeable about these things and talks good sense.

Quite often it makes sense to just replace extinguishers when their discharge test is due as the cost of buying them online is usually much cheaper than the test!

But, when buying online, only buy from web sites that tell you who makes their extinguishers and who have an address and a telephone that is answered by humans. And avoid the cheapest of the cheap as it's just not worth it.

Also, look for written details of their money back guarantee and delivery details. There are four or five good online suppliers if you search Google for "fire extinguishers".

Deep Blue
Member - 1 post

I am trying to find out if the discharge test for each extinguisher (except C02) that is carried out is a legal requirement or whether it is just recommended?

Thank you for any help that can be given!

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

It is a requirement to service your extinguisher to BS5306-3. This standard is taken as being the standard used by a competent person & you are required to use a competent person to maintain your fire fighting equipment under the Fire Safety Order.

You may find cowboys that won't do the tests, but you will loose out on the long run as your equipment is not being maintained competently as required by the Order and more importantly may not work correctly or be hazardous.

A competent person who is not allowed to carry out an extended service will put 'not maintained' on the service label, which will quite rightly upset your insurers and the fire authority.

Fire fighting agents do decay and have a shelf life and many of the current types of extinguisher cannot be correctly checked for correct function & safety unless discharged and disassembled.

I am fed up of people who try and wriggle out of their obligations to providing and maintaining safety equipment correctly in general, get our extinguishers serviced properly - shop around and it shouldn't cost the earth.

If you have a small workplace you can avoid all servicing by using disposable powder extinguishers, carrying out the annual user checks and replacing them every 5 years, works out far cheaper than having the reusable types and servicing them, just be aware powder isn't always the best for everything

Iain Sanderson
Member - 64 posts

Note that a discharge test is only required every five years as part of the extended test. The basic test is carried out annually.

Phil Martin
Member - 8 posts

Dear Deep Blue,
There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the roll of “British Standards” in fire safety. Where we are talking about maintenance the law says –

“17. —(1) Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons the responsible person must ensure that the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the premises under this Order or, subject to paragraph (6), under any other enactment, including any enactment repealed or revoked by this Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.”1

That’s great; it tells us we must do it but doesn’t tell us how. That is where British Standards comes in. In fact the term “British Standard” is misleading. The documents we are referring to are on the whole “Codes of Practice”. These codes of practice (COP) are published by The British Standards Institute (BSI) and, hence, referred to as British Standards. The COP are written by committees made up of stakeholders from both sides of industry to ensure that the codes are technically competent but do not represent the interest of the trade. On the whole these COP are a list of “recommendations” and use the word “should” whereas the law is a list of “requirements” and uses the words “must” and “shall”. As there is no alternative, Central Government, Fire Brigades, Insurance companies and other bodies regard the COP as an unerring guide to good practice and advise compliance with them.

Take a hypothetical example where you had decided not to have your extinguishers maintained in accordance with BS5306:3. A small fire broke out which could have been dealt with easily with a portable extinguisher but the extinguisher didn’t work. The small fire caused a few hundred pounds worth of damage but when it escalated it caused several million pounds worth of damage. An insurance company might argue that as the larger part of the loss was due to your deliberate act, they would only be liable for the smaller part of the loss. If some one died in the fire the Fire Brigade would probably prosecute you under criminal law which would probably result in a gaol sentence!

You may know better than the people who wrote the COP. The problem is trying to convince a court of law of that. In the interest of a quiet life you are probably better off just sticking to the COP.

Ref 1 = Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005

Hope this helps

Phil

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Hi Phil,

Article 17 as quoted, refers to maintenance of existing equipment which was also required under any previous legislation, and rightly requires the responsible person to keep all apparatus in good working order.

From this, I would suggest that irrespective of the findings of any risk assessment carried out under Article 9 of the RRO a lesser standard of provision of fire safety apparatus and systems cannot be permitted

Article 13 1 (a) of the RRO is also specific in that it states".....the responsible person must ensure that-" "the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate,
equipped with appropriate fire fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms"

So, in a new build, the risk assessment may find that no fire fighting equipment or apparatus is required at all, if the responsible person can demonstrate that this is "appropriate", but in an existing building where other fire legislation previously applied and required equipment, that equipment cannot be removed.

Hmmmm..... good one eh?

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Angie Fitzgibbon
Member - 1 post

Hiya

Can anyone help. Do Fire Extinguishers have to be replaced after 10 years

ANgie

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

No - see postings above.

An extinguisher may continue in service as long as it is in safe operable condition and suitable parts and components are available.

The only thing at every 10 years is that CO2 extinguishers require a new valve and the cylinder retesting to meet pressure safety regulations.*

Some suppliers would rather sell you a new CO2 and collect the scrap on the brass and aluminium.

More reputable companies will offer to do this pressure test (known as an overhaul) and to avoid the hassle of leaving you without an extinguisher and having to make a second visit they will swap yours for an extinguisher overhauled in the same year (a 'service exchange')

As both a new & an overhauled extinguisher have a 10 year span between tests there is no advantage to buying new.

* One make of sealed powder extinguisher (Nu swift strike knob type) only requires is extended service every 10 years as oppose to 5 years for other types.

Phil Robb
Member - 1 post

I am trying to find out what the legislation is on fire extinguishers being present or not inside an office. At present, I work in a communial office that, when fully populated would hold 22 personnel. However, at present there are no extinguishers inside the office, which I do not believe is correct. There are plenty elsewhere within the building but not in our work area.

Please advise if you know,

Thanks,

Anon
Member - 373 posts

I believe that the amount of people may not be the main factor, but the distance between extinguihers, and doors in between etc.

The thing is Fire extinguihers should only be used to stop a small controllable fire by people trained to do so.

My presumption is that you, and your colleagues have not had that training, so what should you do in a fire? get out as quickly and calmly as possible.

With a simple course (which can be provided by suppliers of extinguishers) most members of staff could be trained to use them, and therefore your question would be more relevant.

However, everybody should be aware of what they should do in the event of a fire, maybe its time for a fire drill to test that.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 64 posts

The primary legislation that would lead to the provision of extinguishers in the work place is, in England and Wales, the Regulatory Reform (Fire SAfety) Order and, in Scotland Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act. There is further guidance at www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/ and www.infoscotland.com/firelaw respectively. The number of extinguisher required primarily relates to area to be covered, the type of risk to be protected and the distance between extinguishers.
Phil is certainly correct, and it should be emphasised, that there is a need for training. Provision of extinguishers without training is probably worse than not having them.

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Further to the answers above, and dependent upon the findings of the fire risk assessment and the layout of the building it might not be necessary to have fire extinguishers directly within the work space, it may be acceptable to position them, say, on a corridor outside of the workspace. One criteria here though, is the distance to be travelled to access the unit. The British Standard recommends that no person should have to travel more than 30 metres to access a fire extinguisher, and all staff must be aware of the location of the apparatus

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Candice Link
Member - 2 posts

Really interesting site with some great info!

Candice Link
Member - 2 posts

I have put a link on my website to this site, I hope it will help fellow endusers find useful and accurate information!

Andrew Collins
Member - 1 post

One question for the knowledgeable..

The positioning of extinguishers, what is the law? We have lots (about 5) positioned at the fire exits. Surely there is now need for this? As the fire procedure is to evacuate and go to the meeting point, so having extinguishers at the exits is encouraging poeple to go back into the building. Would it be better for me to move these to be place on the escape route?

Iain Sanderson
Member - 64 posts

The information on siting fire extinguishers is in BS 5306 Part8. Generally the advice is - "Normally, extinguishers should be located in conspicuous positions on brackets or stands where they will be readily seen by persons following an escape route. Siting positions near to room exits, corridors, stairways, lobbies and landings are most suitable. Extinguishers should not be located where a potential fire might prevent access to them."
The number and type required is dependant on the area of the premises, the distance to access an extinguisher and specific fire risks within the premises. Your extinguisher supplier should know the detail of all of this.
There is further guidance at www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/ for England and Wales and www.infoscotland.com/firelaw for Scotland.

Terry Hicks
Member - 2 posts

I work in a petrol station. It has two serial pump islands handling 4 customers.
1 pump island has unleaded, red and white diesel (6 hoses) the other just unleaded and white diesel (4 hoses).
It is a small forecourt but also has jetwash area, tank refuel area, small customer queing area .
It also has a small l shaped shop, max 7x4 and 6 x 4 meters, 6x 4 being a converted room opened out.
It is manned by 1 cashier.
What is the min requirement and of what types of extinguishers should be in place and for what areas. ie two water based for shop and foam and/or co2 and/or powder for forecourt.
I know if there was a fire on the forecourt I have to press the electronic pump cutoff switch. should there also be a mechanical switch?
thx

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

HSE publications such as HSG41 & Association for Petroleum and Explosives Administration publications give detailed guidance (I can send you some if you contact me off line).

Based on current guidance & industry practice your two metered pumps will require a forecourt fire point of either two 6 kilo Powder extinguishers or two 6 litre Foam extinguishers (both minimum fire rating 144B) and two fire buckets of dry sand with scoop.

The shop, being mixed risk does not suit water and usually a fire point of a 6 litre foam and 2 kilo CO2 would be used.

In addition to any emergency switches inside the kiosk there must be to the exterior of the kiosk a fire fighter mechanical switch for the pumps and also one for the high voltage neon signage (if you have a lit canopy)

If you were to introduce an LPG pump in the future then the main tank would require a 9 kilo Powder extinguisher and the forecourt an additional Powder extinguisher.

Contact me on anthony.buck@sm-ms.biz for more info & I can send you some documents

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

I'm looking for a defination of the term "domestic (or private) dwelling" in relation to blocks of flats and, in particular, the common parts ( stairs, corridors, bins rooms etc) I have learnt that common parts qualify for non-domestic council tax. Is this the case and is there any case where such buildings can be defined purely as a "multi-tenanted domestic dwelling"
(of course, the sub-plot here is, can we remove flats from the RRO)

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

I strongly suggest you search the archives on the (non profit) Firenet forum where this has been debated in depth already by fire safety experts including fire authority enforcement officers.

http://www.kingfell.com/~forum/index.php

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

Cheers Antony

Terry Hicks
Member - 2 posts

cheers anthony

Barry Lang
Member - 204 posts

Hello Charles

I live in a block of flats and the common parts are subject to the RRO the flats are not.
Common parts also fall under the No Smoking legislation which is a plus point when youn risk assess.

Barry

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Hello all,

Blocks of flats, or flats in mixed use buildings with common access areas whether let or owned are subject to the RRO, in respect of the common areas.

Regards

Mike Kane
Fire UK Ltd
fireuk@msn.com

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

Cheers for this guys - we in Northern Ireland are still under the workplace regs and are expecting to come into line with the rest of the UK with the commencement of the FIre Safety (NI) Regs 2009 about July. We also have the current Fire Services (NI) Order 2006 which gives the meaning of 'revelant premises' in Article 50 (1) and (6), to wit;

50 (1) In this part, "revelant premises" means any premises other than,
(a) domestic premises ....

(6) For the purposes of paragraph (1)-
"domestic premises" means any premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises, which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling), but does not include a house in multiple occupation.

Firstly I wonder if the RRO carries a similar clause.

Secondly, is there an argument for construing the entrance lobby, stairways and corridors of blocks of flats as appurtenances to the dwellings which they serve, since without them access, egress, and means of escape would be impossible? If so, common parts are part and parcel of domestic premises and as such are non-relevant premises.

Thirdly, provision of Escape lighting, fire doors, AFA and MCPs (possibly extinguishers) are required for these areas for the safety of residents (and to a lesser extent occasional staff members / workers)

The 'common parts' are, I would suggest, 'used in common' to the domestic dwellings, notwithstanding the fact that they are managed by a landlord / agent.

I looked up 'appurtenances' and found it means,
"an accompanying part or feature of something"
"a legal right or privilege attached to a property" (ie Access?)

I commend this statement to the house, (or domestic dwelling) Charlie

Barry Lang
Member - 204 posts

Hello

It was not clear in your first post that you were in NI and as you say different rules apply.
About the only premises that are exempt from the RRO is a dwelling the common parts are just that.

Regards

Barry

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Charlie,

NI regs will be re-issued and will reflect the RRO and the Scotland Regs.

In the rest of the UK, where there are more than 1 occupant in a building it ceases to be a "single" dwelling.

In the RRO the reference to "private dwelling" in respect of the "...other appertunances..." carries the definition which includes the words"....not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling....."

In respect of the hallways, staircases, plant rooms etc. of flats or apartments, these common parts are deemed "workplaces" as contractors will be in there from time to time.

The tenants then fall under the "other relevant persons" definition, and any fire protection systems required in the premises must necessarily take those other persons into account.

Regards

Mike Kane
Fire UK Ltd
fireuk@msn.com

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

This is very interesting. When I read Mikes' comments, I thought I had misread the clause so doubled checked and can confirm. So - the RRO in England and Wales has the phrase "... not used in common ..." The NI Fire Services Order has "... is used in common..." I wonder what the Scottish regs have.

The commom parts (I would prefer landlord parts) are indeed workplaces and as such fire extinguishers should be provided FOR WORKERS and located in areas accessible only to them. By the same token, a flat also becomes a workplace when maintenance workers carry out repair work or housing officers call to deal with tenant issues. It is also a workplace for other professions.

Where do we draw the line as to what is and what is not a workplace?

Nicola Smith
Member - 8 posts

So if you live in a house (3 storey) that has no fire extinguishers either in the communal parts or the two storeys that are rented accommodation, whose responsibility is to provide those - the Landlord's or the tenants'? We currently have no extinguishers of any description - not even a garden hose and having lived through one house fire with no extinguisher (or at least an extinguisher that didn't work!) I have no desire to repeat the experience.

Help!

Iain Sanderson
Member - 64 posts

On Charles's question on the Scottish angle: -
(all information quoted from Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 accessible at www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2005/asp_20050005_en_1)

Section 78 Gives the Meaning of “relevant premises”
"78 Meaning of “relevant premises”
(1) In this Part, “relevant premises” means any premises other than those mentioned in subsection (2).
(2) Those premises are—
(a) domestic premises

(4) In paragraph (a) of subsection (2), “domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); but does not include premises such as are mentioned in subsection (5).
(5) Those premises are—
(a) a house as respects which the giving of permission to occupy it is an activity for which a licence under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (Licensing of Houses in Multiple Occupation) Order 2000 (S.S.I. 2000/177) is required;
(b) premises used for the provision of a care home service (as defined in subsection (3) of section 2 of the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 (asp 8));
(c) premises used for the provision of a school care accommodation service (as defined in subsection (4) of that section);
(d) premises used for the provision of an independent health care service (as defined in subsection (5) of that section);
(e) premises used for the provision of a secure accommodation service (as defined in subsection (9) of that section);
(f) premises which would fall within paragraph (a) but for there being in force in respect of them a control order under section 178 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (c. 26); and
(g) premises which would fall within paragraph (a) but for there being in force in respect of them a management control order granted by virtue of section 74 of the Antisocial Behaviour etc. (Scotland) Act 2004 (asp 8)."

Note that this a premises excluded from the requirement of Fire Risk Assesment so the only requirements or common areas of flatted property in Scotland relates to facilities provided for the Fire Service under Section 59 of the Act.

This, not surprisingly, has been the subject of much discussion.

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

Hi Nicola - sounds like the house you describe is a HMO (house in multiple occupation), which, I'm guessing, was once a single private dwelling, converted to flats, where tenants usually share a bathroom, lounge or a kitchen. If so, they must be registered as such. Certain conditions for registration apply, e.g. an alarm system, emergency lighting, signage, breakglass points, fire extinguishers, fire doors and compartmentation. This is the landlords' responsibility. However, his / her fire risk assessment should clearly indicate the advice to tenants in the event of a fire such as, get out, stay out, get the FB out. If he / she provides fire extinguishers it's probably because the registration authority or the insurance company demands them, but you will not be expected, or required to use them unless he / she has trained you to do so. If you use them without his / her express permission - and get hurt as a consequence - a court will probably find in his / her favour under "volunti non fit injuria" i.e. you volunteered for the injury.
It is a fundemental health and safety principle that, if you provide safety equipment, you are under a duty of care to train "nominated" people in its proper use. In your position, I would buy myself a 6ltr multi-purpose foam, or a 2kg CO2 extinguisher for personal use in the event of fire - then I would contact my local authority or fire service to find out if my landlord is in breach of his / her responsibilities.

Charlie Houston
Member - 19 posts

Cheers Ian, as always, the Scottish approach is much more specific. I shall enjoy reading up on the references you give. Mind you, it does point up the fact that, this idea of having an all-embrassng, fully-comprehensive fire-safety legislation is a bit of a myth.

r crews
Member - 7 posts

is it necescary to have fire extinguishers checked annually in a church? there is only 1 employee. the congregation is usually 40-50 and occasionally 200.

we have done an assesment and there is a low risk of fire (& none in 300 years)
vunerable people are never on their own and there are several exits

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Yes! - The number of people has no bearing on the need to maintain something.

Unserviced extinguishers can fail to operate and even become dangerous. The extension fire safety via the RRO to cover Churches, Scout Huts and similar buildings fillls an important gap as many of these premises in my experience have fire equipment that is not just obsolete, but positively dangerous - asbestos fire blankets and soda acid extinguishers nearly rusted through internally are some examples.

It doesn't cost that much really - the alternative is to use limited life powder extinguishers that are maintenance free (although Ecclesiastical Insurance ban the use of powder in churches due to the damage - vandals discharged one in a church resulting in £100,000 of repairs to it's historical organ) & are replaced every 5 years

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

Anthony is correct - the number of people has no bearing on the requirement to maintain the fire extinguishers and certainly I can relate to the defects that have been highlighted.
I note that you have stated that you haven't had a fire for 300 years and I always say to people that this may be a fact but if you look at it the other way you are now 300 years nearer having a fire than you were before.
I also note your comment about the number of people and only 1 employee but what about cleaners, flower arrangers and other tradespeople that have to visit have you included them in your risk assessment?
The last point that I would like to make is that during my fire service career I used the available fire fighting equipment to extinguish many a small fire and this saved on further damage.

r crews
Member - 7 posts

thanks Anthony & Alan for your coments which i take on board. we have had the extinguishers inspected every year and refilled etc as required. and we absolutely agree the need to have them servicable should they ever be needed. hover we are in budget defecit this year and want to get back into ballance and want to know what the legal requirement is for having them tested. we would like to check them ourselves this year and then have them professionaly inspected the following year.

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

R,

What are the dimensions of your church and how many extinguishers do you have?

There shouldn't be a need to have them re-filled every year and the servicing costs should not normally be prohibitive.

If you feel that you are paying a high price for your servicing, you might consider looking through the "Yellow Pages" or such trade directories and gain 3 or 4 quotes from other suppliers.

Any you approach should be members of an accredited trade association such as "BAFE" to ensure a professional service.

Good luck

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

r crews
Member - 7 posts

i think what you are saying is that there isnt a legal requirement to have them inspected every year but that it is a good idea. so i think we will inspect them ourselves this year and get it done proffesionally alternate years.

thanks Roger

Barry Lang
Member - 204 posts

Roger

They do need inspecting annually but they may not need refilling.

Barry

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

I'm afraid you are not compent persons and will not have the training or equipment to service the extinguishers yourselves - in the past where user's have tried to service extinguishers themselves it has rsulted in disaster and i have pictures showing the results.

You must use a competent person to service your extinguishers each year or be liable to enforcement action (plenty of case law to support this). London Fire Brigade have even sucessfully prosecuted for extinguishers with the safety pin & seal mising in between service visits (the implication being that if during your monthly user visual check you see the pin & seal has been pulled you should call out an engineer in case the extinguisher has been used).

It shouldn't cost that much for the annual Basic Service, the only timeit would cost more is for the 5 yearly Extended service on Water/Foam/Powder/Wet Chemical or the 10 yearly Overhaul on CO2.

Where are you in the UK - if you are really between a rock & a hard place i may be able to arrange a free Basic service if you only have a very small number of extinguishers.

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

Anthony,
I am very interested in your comments that LFB successfully prosecuted for extinguishers with the safety pin & seal missing - do you have any further details because I can't see what grounds they prosecuted on. Presumably, the extinguisher was in position and had not been discharged so in law it was in position and available for use which is what the law requires.

Regards

Alan

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Park Care Homes Limited, who owned and operated Ravenscroft Park Nursing Home - one of the summonses was for an extinguisher with missing pin & seal and damaged label.

JJB Sports were also summonsed for (amongst other things) an empty, albeit in date, extinguisher as part of a sucessful prosecution

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

Anthony,
This is from London Fire Brigade:

1.The risk assessment was not suitable or sufficient;
2.Appropriate procedures to be followed in the event of serious imminent danger to
persons at work at Ravenscroft Park Nursing Home were not established;
3.The door to room 212 was locked with the resident inside;
4.The rear and final fire exit (the full height iron gates) from the basement was
secured with a combination padlock;
5.The fire extinguisher found on the second floor did not have a pin or security tag
and the test label was damaged;
6.The fire extinguisher found outside room 202 on the first floor was tested on 15
October 2003 and did not have security tag;
7.By virtue of the fact that the basement double doors had been wedged open prior to
the fire, large volumes of smoke entered the basement corridor compromising escape
from all parts of the basement;
8.The fire door leading to the laundry in the basement did not have a self closing
device;
9.The smoke damper at the base of the laundry chute doors in the basement was
defective and wedged open;
10.The corridor in the basement was being used for storage and thereby restricted
the width of the escape route from the basement.
11.The final exit door from the kitchen was not maintained in an efficient state, in
efficient working order and in good repair in that the bots securing the door were
difficult to open;
12.The door leading to the kitchen was locked with a digital lock;
13.The only exit from the garden was via a gate that was locked.
On 16 February 2007, the Crown Court handed down the following Judgment:
1.In relation to Summons 1 the Defendant is to pay the amount of £100,000.00;
2.In relation to Summons 2 the Defendant is to pay the amount of £100,000.00;
3.No orders in relation to Summonses 3 – 13;
4.Defendant to pay the Prosecutions costs of £30,366.28;
5.All money’s to be paid within 28 days.

I would think that the issue was the label which was damaged and presumably the date of testing could not be ascertained from this. The label was not included in your original reply and that was why I asked the question as I would be very surprised at any Fire Authority prosecuting for just this aspect.

r crews
Member - 7 posts

Thanks guys for your comments, and particularly Anthony for your offer of a free service. we arent quite that hard up, just have to look carefully at every cost.

i gather it is a legal requirement to have them proffesionally inspected every year from what you say. what i would like is the reference for our other committee members.

thanks roger

r crews
Member - 7 posts

Hi
if you dont have the reference to hand do you know where i could look it up please

thanks roger

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

From The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005

Maintenance
17. —(1) Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons
the responsible person must ensure that the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the premises under this Order or, subject to paragraph (6), under any other enactment, including any enactment repealed or revoked by this Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.

From the Official Guides to the Fire Safety Order on how to meet the above clause:

Selection, installation and maintenance of portable fire extinguishers

All portable fire extinguishers will require
periodic inspection, maintenance and testing.
Depending on local conditions such as the
likelihood of vandalism or the environment
where extinguishers are located, carry out brief
checks to ensure that they remain serviceable.
In normal conditions a monthly check should
be enough. Maintenance by a competent
person should be carried out annually.

From BS5306-3

5 Basic service, extended service and overhaul

5.1 General
The user should ensure that extinguishers, along with any spare gas cartridges and replacement charges, are maintained regularly. Basic service, extended service and overhaul should be carried out at the intervals recommended in Annex A, in accordance with Annex B, Annex C or Annex D, respectively. The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 require this to be done by a competent person.

Annex A states a Basic Service shall be carried out every year.

And to prove that the annual interval is backed up by enforcement just look at any fire services online prosecution database.

r crews
Member - 7 posts

thanks Anthony

that is very helpful

Roger

Stephen Durham
Member - 7 posts

Those organisations that provide, or have connections with extinguisher maintainance companies (including FETA - now FIA) will tell you that extinguishers require annual maintenance or 'service' and this must be undertaken by a qualified / registered engineer and you are breaking the law if you don't. To become competent you must attend a FIA approved 4 day course (£££). This is nonsense of course as you will not find this in any legislation or British Standards (BS 5306) as this merely requires an annual inspection by a 'competent' person. No definition of the latter. If you look at the specific requirements for each type of extinguisher this merely requires a visual inspection for corrosion, leaks, hose, seal and guage checks and in some instances weighing. You can buy an exxtinguisher guauge tester from
RS Components £15. Five/ten minute job that any person with the minimal mechanical know how could undertake and extinguisher companies make a fortune out of it. There are training providers that will offer a one day course on how to do this (of course not FIA approved) and frankly, even the content of this is stretched to justify a whole day.

Wet extinguishers (water & AFFF) do require a full discharge and maintenance overhaul every five years, (Dry powder & CO2) every ten years and this must be done by qualified FIA approved trained person and rightly so. Any person that undertakes full discharge, maintenace and discharge of extinguishers would be foolish not to undertake a FIA approved course or use a FIA approved person. FIA (was FETA) do maintain a high standard of approved training providers. I just wish they would be practical and approve a half day/full day course for those merely carrying out simple annual inspections on pressurised extinguishers as per BS 5306 but I guess this would be opposed by their members as they would lose lucrative revenue.

If you switch to pressurised extinguishers (the ones with a shrader valve) and shop around, water and AFFF extinguishers are cheaper to buy new than paying for the five year discharge and service, the latter being around £45 - £50 per extinguisher. Scrap them (save the foam - your local extinguisher company will take it off you and the metal has value too) - new extinguishers are about £30 each online.

One word of warning before you use your own handyman or engineer for annual inspections, check the terms of your insurance policies, these might tie you in to using a FIA engineer.

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

Hi Stephen, there is a misconception that because an extinguisher is a 'tin-can' under pressure how difficult can it be? Extinguishers being a pressure vessal are 'potential bombs' and if maintained in a hapazard fashion can cause serious injury if they suddenly release pressure due to faults.
The RRO actually states that annual maintenance must be carried out by a suitably qualified person. As you state this is a 4 day course with the FIA or BFC or also available is a 3 day course from IFEDA (FIA are not the only trainers so have to charge a 'marketplace/competitieve' price rather than a 'lucrative' one. On your suggested half day course do you think you will have time learn the relevent sections of the RRO, the relevent sections of BS5306 parts 3 and 8. Will you have time to learn how to recognise that the stated extinguisher is still correct for the risk with the appropriate fire rating - having been moved from elsewhere after having been used as a door stop in hot weather? Will you know what to do on discovering an extinguisher manufactured to BS5423, will you condemn it because it needs a new inner cartridge for example? What is the tolerance allowed on the weight? When carrying out a basic service on a CO2 do you weigh it with or with out the horn assembly - how do you get the horn assembly off safely, when do you remove the pin to check the head assemply - when the horn is off or on? is the bursting disc blocked? Is the horn suffering from uv degradation - if so so what? what is the weight tolerance on the co2? Will you have time to learn how to do a basic service on a cartridge operated extinguisher - how much anti-freeze are you going to add to an extinguisher that is being considered for 'outside' duty'. Does your company have vehicles that carry extinguishers across the channel? If so at what must you put on the service label? When will you learn how to test pressure gauges to check the one on the extinguisher isn't faulty? Quite a lot for a half day/one day course with practical supervision as well.
Even if you are just carrying out an annual service I hope I have given you a flavour of why the course to end up with a competent person is 4 or 3 days in length depending on you training supplier.
As you state there are many cheap extinguishers on the market so why not simply replace them every 5 years instead of having an extended service? Like anything in life you get what you pay for. Fire extinguishers are provided for the sole purposes of assisting real people to get out of a dangerous situation i.e. save a life, or to stop a small (waste paper bin size) fire becoming a fire that destroys your business. The last extinguisher survey showed that circa 75% of fires are extinguished without having to call the fire brigade saving businesses million of pounds.
I personally want to buy decent extinguishers that have been properly maintained so that I can be really sure that when needed they actually do what they say they will do and not fail to go off or not go off for long enough. All fires start small yet 60% of businesses never recover from a fire that becomes a serious fire. So its a choice really - cheap extinguishers not maintained by a competent engineer or goodbye premises and potentially the loss of life.
All insurance companies insist on kite marked extinguishers being fitted with many also insisting that competent persons should be BAFE accredited - (similar to corgi as was for the gas industry) - to be bafe qualified means you have had to have had this basic 3/4 day training plus on-going supervision.
Kind regards
Graham Ferris
General manager
IFEDA www.ifeda.org

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Well said graham - it is companies and individuals that think it requires virtually no initial or refresher training that leave plenty of hazardous, non functional or illegal extinguishers in place. On some occaisions these people make a living out of charging for your 'service'.

Anyone can in practice buy tools to tinker with their car - but only approved competent persons and garages can carry out an MoT & issue the certificate - the same should apply to a fire extinguisher.

There is no way I could train a person in half a day to carry out a Basic Service on al the types in circulation - the monthly user visual check perhaps.

Don't forget in the late 1990's an extinguisher firm was prosecuted following a serious injury caused by non competent staff servicing too many extinguishers too quickly, missing a critical fault.

Pressurised extinguishers mostly don't have Schraeder valves anymore in order to stop untrained personnel trying to service and fill them. Chubb do (due to holding the MoD contract to allow trained military service personnel to recharge in the field without an adapter that could easily be lost) and the amerex Stored pressure plain water, but thats the exception.

John Muirhead
Member - 2 posts

HI,

straying away from extinguishers

- Do manual break points (red boxes) ever need replacing after a certain period?
- Do they have a shelf life?

John

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Not if in working order, no. No time limit. Replacement is often due to failure, lack of available parts (e.g. glazed elements), or inability to test (e.g. Old Gent's call points are fastened by an Allen key nut that after time rounds off making it almost impossible to open the point to test of replace the glass). also installing a new system often involves new call points especially if an old conventional system is being replaced by twinwire, wireless or addressable.

Spares don't have a shelf life either as long as they are going to be compatable with the system they might ultimately be linked to (which wouldn't be an issue on a conventional system)

r crews
Member - 7 posts

back to inspecting fire extinguishers.

so i understand the industry proffesionals believe in the belt and braces approach to be 99.9% safe.
however we will take the middle ground and have them professionally inspected alternate years and do our own checks the other years, and try to cover all the points raised. if there are any concerns we can still ask the professionals. and we have 2 more extinguishers than are prescribde for the job. our hanyman has an electronics degree and also qualified as an electrician so is both inteligent and practical.

thanks for all the input

Roger

John Muirhead
Member - 2 posts

Thanks Anthony,

this is what I thought, it was my alarm company who service my equipment told me we needed to start replacing all the call boxes as they were now over 10 years old.

Theres nothing wrong with them, we test each one on a rota every week.

They also told me that we were not DDA compliant as none of our dectector had flashing lights for the deaf to see in case of an emergency.
We do not provide a service or have public coming in, we are a private business. Do we need to start changing our dectectors to comply?

John.

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

To R Crews
".......try to cover all points raised......." This is potentially life saving equipment we are discussing.
Though highly qualified, your handyman isn't allowed to write on the service label belonging to the 'professional' company so worst case scenario there is a fire - the insurance company becomes involved and the outside contractor/'profesional' company says "we weren't called nothing to do with us." The service label will have a gap on it or be signed by a non-competent person. The insurance company will then ask you for proof that the extinguishers were serviced by a competent i.e. as in trained person capable of servicing with regards to BS5306 - 3: and your proof is? I suspect the insurance company would probably have grounds for not honouring their side of the insurance contract as you have not honoured yours i.e. the RRO (which as legislation) states fire extinguishing equipment must be serviced with regards to BS5306 -3 which in it states annually. Another consequence of only calling in the 'professionals' on alternate years is, if the outside contracter doesn't know what has gone on previously i.e. last year then they are supposed to carry out an extended service - which has just added to the expense and wiped out the saving you made the previous year.
However it is still a free country - if you want risk having the insurance company not pay up in the case of a fire, good luck : has your business got enough contingency for rebuild costs and replacement of contents?
Regards
Graham

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

You think an unqualified electrician can service your extinguishers and you only need to do them every 2 years?

Why don't you ask the fire safety enforcement department of your Fire & Rescue Service - they will give you the ultimate answer as at the end of the day they are the ones who would take you to court.

They are quite helpful and we work with them often in complex situations.

Some people are reluctant to contact them however as they know they won't hear the answer they want and do not want an inspection, yet will try and argue to everyone else that they are correct.

Alan Cox
Member - 131 posts

Some interesting points here and whilst the initial topic was Fire Extinguishers we appear to have deviated to Fire Alarms during the discussions - could I suggest that if you do want to raise a different topic you raise it as a new topic and it will then attract people that have an interest in that topic but may not be interested in the current subject.
Let me now give you my thoughts on "competent persons" - if you look at HM Government Guides on Fire Safety Risk Assessment and the part that deals with Maintenance of Portable Extinguishers it states “Maintenance by a competent person should be carried out annually". If you now look at a typical definition of the term you will find something like this “The person is regarded as competent if they have 'sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities to properly assist the employer to meet his safety obligations.' The Competent Person can be either an individual or a company providing these services.
Now let us look at the term “risk assessment” because this is what we are dealing with in all of the fire and safety legislation in the UK. A simple definition would be this “The overall process of identifying all the risks to and from an activity and assessing the potential impact of each risk” – there are a number of others but this explains the process reasonably well. The key thing to remember about carrying out a risk assessment is that it is the duty of the owner or occupier to carry out this task and they should carry out the task in accordance with the relevant guidance eg HSE/HM Government etc. This task may be contracted to a specialist company if appropriate.
A great deal of the discussion has revolved around whether or not this work can be done by someone who is not from a commercial company but has certain skills that may or may not be appropriate – whether we like it or not it is up to the employer/occupier to make this decision and to assess if that person has sufficient training and experience or knowledge/ other qualities to take on this role. If he is unsure about this point he can always consult interested companies/individuals eg Fire Service, HSE, Local Authority, Insurance Companies or Specialist Companies. However these will generally offer best practice advice and refer you to British/European Standards, Approved /Third Party Schemes etc but the key thing to remember here is that this is best practice advice and may not always be appropriate or cost effective. As a matter of interest in the USA they have an NFPA (NFPA 10, 4-3.2 Procedures) scheme for Fire Extinguishers that allows a 30 day cycle inspection check by the owner/responsible person in lieu of annual servicing, however there are quite strict conditions that apply to this.
When an owner/occupier is challanged by the enforcing authorities as long as he/she can prove that their system/solution is equal to the industry standard/manufacturers guidance then that should be acceptable.

Jon Butt
Member - 2 posts

The cost of servicing fire extinguishers is not very high so why be so tight? These could potentially save a life or a lot of expense.

As for using a non-trained person, that is just mad. People have been killed trying to service extinguisher in the past and you insurers would be looking for any excuse not to pay up after a fire - why give them one?

Why not instruct your service engineer to do the basic minimum maintenance every year and replace them all at 5 years old (CO2s at 10 years) instead of having an expensive discharge test?

Contrary to some stories being put about, a few of the better online suppliers sell genuine brand-name new extinguishers from the top manufacturers for around £25-£35 each.

What would that cost in maintenance? Maybe a £20 visit charge and £2-3 per unit with spares? Hardly worth risking a life, insurance loss or Magistrate Court appearance over!

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Hi all,

I think that this debate has run its course.

Annual professional inspections are really what are required and we all know that the British Standards move us in that direction.

If any individual employer or organisation decides not to follow that route, then that is their decision, which is their right to decide and which will be what they are judged on when called to account by the Courts.

All I would suggest is that when pricing up the necessary annual inspection work, a number of quotations for the work are obtained to ensure that there is no "rip off" being perpetrated.

Good luck

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Stephen Durham
Member - 7 posts

I'm afraid it has not run it's course, annual inspections are required by BS but not necessarily by 'professional' registered service engineers who sell it as an annual 'service' and perform unnecessary work and charge accordingly.
Further, if you look at the standard service/inspection record label provided on any fire extinguisher label provided by 'professionals' they all state 'next 5 year test date' albeit CO2 and dry powder only require testing every 10 years. Of course the average employer/owner does not know this and and again pays for servicing that is not required.

We still get scare mongering responses from the 'fire protection maintenance industry' about being "called to account and judged in court", which again is an indication of how this industry sells itself to the public. Shameful - needs regulating urgently.

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Actually Powder is 5 years - always has been. The only exception was for Nu Swift Powder extinguishers which comprise a body with a primary frangible seal to which you screwed a separate head-cap and hose onto - these alone are 10 years.

The BS again has always mentioned user inspections - these are monthly and are visual only and in no way comprise a basic service.

There are a lot of companies that over charge or don't know what they are doing, but there are also a fair amount of decent ones as well.

Think of the Basic Service etc as an MoT - only approved competent people can do them.

If you are a large enough concern you don't need to use an external company - you can train & equip your own service person/team & I have seen this done to good effect several times.

Mike Kane
Member - 89 posts

Stephen et al,

I suggest that this debate HAS run its course, any more chatter is nothing more than splitting hairs.

The Courts are the final arbitrators in this and many judgements have already been handed down and individuals and organisations fined (in a significant number of cases) many thousands of pounds for breaches of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order including lack of competent maintenance of fire fighting equipment.

I would suggest that for clarification the London Fire Brigade website (for 1 example) is accessed and their library of Prosecutions viewed to give a flavour of the current Legislative thinking on this matter.

In the meantime I re-iterate that, where maintenance of equipment is required, more than 1 source is used for quotation and that all companies approached are members of a recognised professional organisation such as "BAFE".

Mike Kane

Stephen Durham
Member - 7 posts

Stored Pressure Extinguishers

BS 5306-3 Annex 1 - Table A.1 - Quote...

"Powder-primary sealed - Basic service = Every year
Extended service and recharge - if necessary = Every 10 years "

Basic sevice requirements are actions in Table B1 = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

You are simply showing your lack of knowledge of fire extinguisher types. The same document you quote states in table A1:

"Powder- Basic service = Every year
Extended service and recharge - if necessary = Every 5 years
Powder-primary sealed - Basic service = Every year
Extended service and recharge - if necessary = Every 10 years "

A primary sealed extinguisher is defined as:

"3.12
primary sealed stored pressure extinguisher

stored pressure extinguisher in which the operating head and the valves controlling the flow of extinguishing medium during discharge can be detached from the body of the extinguisher without releasing propellant or medium, which are retained in the body by a closure that is ruptured on operation"

Of which the only type in service is the Nu Swift Models with the plunger and lever control on the hose. All other powders are secondary sealed by the valve seat on the end of the spindle in the operating head - if you try and unscrew any charged 'squeeze level' stored pressure powder extinguisher you will get a nasty suprise!

Stephen Durham
Member - 7 posts

Granted but we have no need to unscrew any charged cylinders as by the time they are due for their full ten year service discharge/ recharge we scrap them.

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

D'oh!

5 years, not 10 - the 10 year only applies to primary sealed models (i.e. nu swift), not the field refillable type.

Admitedly with the almost adoption of stored pressure extinguishers, modern chemicals with a longer life and the price drop from the use of Chinese equipment the need for 5 yearly extended services seems less important and extinguishers are almost a disposable asset where you just do a basic check & bin them every 5 or 10 years.

It's not very environmentally acceptable, but it seems that the days when extinguisher service lives could easily and safely reach the 20 year stage are nearly over.

ian wallace
Member - 2 posts

Hi,

great site with loads of good info. There has been many mentions on how an extinguisher service doesnt cost that much. Could anyone give me some examples of what is a standard price (whats competitive?) for basic / extended / replacement / call out etc.

Thanks

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

So many different factors occur it's difficult to be precise. Call out fee's range from £15-£35, basic servicing without parts inclusive £1-£3, basic servicing with parts & refills anything from £5-£15.
Extended servicing should just be a refill fee. Refill prices range wildly, water & foam in the £10-£20 range, similar for CO2, powder being most expensive up to £40+

New equipment unless polished finish, wet chemical or specialist powder should never be more than £50

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

Ian,

Anthony's pricing information is a good refelction of the industry.

There are certain areas to be wary of, as different companies operate altenative charging options. Some have no site visit chage. Typically there are 3 different options for the servicing; excluding parts, including small spares and all inclusive (even discharges) although typically only available for new equipment.

2 important points to remember are:

1) Some extinguisher companies (even large ones I won't mention) pay engineers commission. This can lead to extinguishers being replaced for new, when they could simply be due a discharge test or additional equipment being provided which you don't actually need or want.
2) If the price for servicing seems incredily low, the service company will be looking to make money somewhere else, possibly with extortionate replacement prices.

You will often see companies quoting a price per unit for the service of fire extinguishers which is misleading. £1.50 per unit seems good, until you realise they are free to charge for all parts at the time of the service and overhaul. This aditional costs pushes the average up considerably. If you don't get an all inclusive option you should find out the price for parts and refills before entering into a contract.

In order to avoid nasty surprises it's best to log all the extingushers types, sizes, locations, and next discharge dates. This information will enable a fire safety company to provide a budgetable price for an annual service (so long as none of the equipment is genuinely faulty).

You should also agree the prices for replacements and refills of equipment before entering into a contract.

C E
Member - 3 posts

Hi, we are just about to open a shop. We have completely overlooked Fire Extinguishers. It was brought up when we were with our insurance broker regarding a quote, so I bought one. I bought a 2kg CO2 extinguisher. However, I never even realised that there was a law about this kind of thing, so I guess I would like a little bit of guidance if someone could help...

Our shop has one entrace/exit. It is 4m square with a small storage area and toilet of about 1.5m square at the back. Its completely open plan, except for store room/toilet door. It has 3 electric lights on the ceiling, lights in cabinets all of which are turned off when we leave. There is no gas supply, and we use no chemicals.

1 person will work there as a sole trader and Joe Public are restricted to a 1.5M square area where they stand to peruse and buy products and have no access to fixings etc.

So the public are only ever 1.5m max from the door, and the 1 member of staff maximum 4m.

Will 1 fire extinguisher suffice? Do we really need to to a risk assesment? Do fire officers or whoever visit the premises or what?

thanks so much
Claire

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

You do need to carry out a fire risk assessment, but as there are not 5 or more employees and it is not licensed you do not need a written record of it (but it is recommended).

For a small shop like this the benchmark guidance from the government allows a deviation from the British Standard guidance and a small multi-purpose (ABC) Powder extinguisher will suffice, ideally 2 kilo. They can be obtained from B&Q, Netto, etc as well as extinguisher supply companies.

CO2 is excellent for electrical fires but of little use on ordinary (Class A) materials such as wood, paper, textiles & normally must be supplemented by a water or foam extinguisher. In a small shop two extinguishers would take up a lot of space & so the small powder extinguishers are advised instead.

The free guidance leaflet on the legislation has an example risk assessment in that could almost be your shop, so is worth a read - click on:

www.firesafetyguides.communities.gov.uk/

and on the right hand side of the page click on :

Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 - A short guide to making your premises safe from fire

this is the document you need.

As a small premises you are unlikely to get an enforcement visit unless someone complains or you have a fire or you are a unit in a larger building (in which case some landlords also carry out inspections for fire safety compliance as part of lease compliance checks)

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

Claire,

Your legal requirement is to assess the risks in your premises and take appropraite action, the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety)Order doesn't specify you must have fire extinguishers at all.

Fire extinguishers are generally considered as an appropriate means to meet the requirements identified within your risk assessment.

You can download a guide for shops free of charge here : http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk2

You can also download a free risk assessment form (In my opinion this is only suitable for small premises)
http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/

When considering your risk assessment you need to establish potential sources of ignition eg: Electrical equipment, Heaters, Fuseboards, Arson and soon

Who is at risk eg: employees, Vistiors, Customers, is there sleeping accomodation above the shop?

Once you have identified the hazards you can then specify how you intend to overcome them eg: CO2 fire extingusiher for Electrical hazards, 3ltr AFFF foam for Class A & B hazards, any bins secured away from the building to reduce arson risk.

If there's sleeping accommodation above the shop you should also consider what happens if there's a fire when the shop is not occupied? or what happens if the flat upsairs cathes fire? Who's going to raise the alarm? If this is the case, perhaps having linked smoke detectors would be a solution in your assessment.

I will just finish by saying that a CO2 extingusher is suitable for Electrical hazards and also carries a class-B rating. This means it will not tackle Class-A fires which are items such as wood, paper, card, fabric etc. If you use a the CO2 extingusiher the fire will die down, then re-ignite as air rushes back to the fuel. I would therefore recommend either the addition of a 3ltr Water or AFFF Foam extinguisher.

Feel free to reply here if you need any further assistance.

Brett

C E
Member - 3 posts

Thank you Brett, I appreciate the links you gave me very much. I will get a water extinguisher too to be on the safe side and we will have smoke detectors in place and possibly linked in. The fuse box and meters are not in our shop, but in a seperate utility cupboard down the alleyway stragely, so I think thats probably good news for fire risks!

If the flat above catches fire during the day, then we would know and raise the alarm. If its night, then no one is in our shop, we couldn't raise the alarm, so surely they should have to think about that right? Seems odd that we have to do all the thinking about these things. Anyway, the place is insured and no one is there so could not get hurt.

The bins are away from the shop, so that's good and a good point I also hadn't thought of. thank you.

this is a very informative thread!

Cheers
Clare

C E
Member - 3 posts

Antony, thank you. The shop on the diagram could indeed be ours! Its absolutely just what I needed, many thanks
Claire

ian wallace
Member - 2 posts

is there any reason why i should use a fire protection company that can service both extinguishers and fire alarms as i seem to have a better deal doing them with 2 companies? I have calls telling me it would be better to "have it all under one roof" but none of these can match the extinguisher service quote and doubt they would beas good!

Thanks

Ian

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

Unless there is a saving to be made I wouldn't change unless you are unhappy with the service you recieve from either of your current suppliers.
Some companies prefer to have one company looking after all of their fire safety needs from fire extingusihers and alarms to risk assessments and training. It's a matter of personal choice.
The savings that may be made need to be weighed against the service levels you recieve now and that of an unknown service company.
We aim for our service pricing to be highly competitive, if somene's dong it cheaper there's a possibility they are cutting corners, like not changing o-rings in the extinguisher hoses, or not testing the gauges.
You also want to know how much a prospective new ompany will charge for refils/replacements in advance.

Nick Stokes
Member - 5 posts

Need Some advice please we have our extinguishers serviced annually but this year the engineer said the CO2 ones need refilling as its been five years since they were done. So we say ok thinking it cant cost that much as you can buy a new 2kg CO2 one for less than 30quid. The bill comes 3 days later and the cost is £103 per unit filled. Does he have a moral obligation to advise us whether its cheaper to replace or just refill

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

Hi, unless the CO2 has been discharged it only needs its 'extended service' every TEN years not 5. BS5306-3 2009 will confirm this. And as you comment correctly, depending on the model of extinguisher rather than pay for a 10 year overhaul and recharge it may be more cost effective to simply have a new one supplied.

Kind regards

Derek Barron
Member - 2 posts

Hi Nick, Co2 extinguishers do not require re-filling every 5 years. They are subject to a basic test every year and a pressure test (hydraulic test) every 10 years.

In the case of Co2 units it is possible to "service exchange" the unit, rather than to purchase a new model. This service exchange unit is an extinguisher that has been sent back to the manufacturer, and which hs been pressure tested to ensure that it is structurally sound. They are then repainted and labelled and sold back to the service agents at a cheaper price than the new models.

The only time your Co2 extinguisher will be re-filled is after it has been discharged. It can be taken away and re-pressurised.

Some companies unfortunately "sell" new/replacment extinguishers rather than service them, thus the high charges.

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

Further to Nicks question above - Brett isspot on especially about his servicing comments. I am led to believe that 'allegedly' sometimes companies go in with a very low quote and in the first year but don't carry out a proper service they just stick a new service label on and then in the second year hit you with a load of 'little extras' you would never have got from a company being up-front about their service charges etc.

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

Agree with Graham.

CO2's require a hydralic test every 10 years, which is not generally done on site. We provide a re-manufactured unit/service exchange for the sam price as a refill.

Always check prices for refills as this is where fire extinguisher companies often make large profits at your expense.

When asking a company to quote for servicing they will often submit a price per unit for the service with all parts and refills on top. Try to agree a price per unit including all service parts, o-rings, tamper tags etc and also agree on prices or refills/replacements. If you let the company know how many units you have, and more importantly the discharge due dates they should be able to supply you with a budgetable service prive for the next few years.

typically you'd be charged £30-50 for water, 2-6ltr Foam, 2-6kg Powder
expect to be charged £35-60 for 9ltr Foam, 9kg Powders and 5kg CO2's
Other specialist units, like Wet Chemicals can be considereably more so are POA.

Do bear in mind that many extinguisher engineers are commission based, particularly in larger well known providers (who I won't mention). This means the more thay charge you for parts/refills/extras the better off they end the day. Some may argue this encourages a good performance from the engineers, personally I think this encourages abuse of their position of authority.

Nick Stokes
Member - 5 posts

Also Can i also ask if he says he has done the refilling and or the pressure test you mentioned above can this be done remotely or do they have to be taken away.

Derek Barron
Member - 2 posts

A pressure test will be carried out away from the site by a specialised company. The service agent should provide a service exchange unit in its place.
A refill can be carried out on site for most extinguishers, however it is more likely a co2 extinguisher will be taken back to the service yard to be re-filled.

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

It is possible to do this on-site, however most companies simply provide a service exchange instead as it's quicker with less hassle for the customer. With the time taken to do the hydraulic testing, plus the additional equipment required, we feel it's more cost effective to use a service exchange.

This means they take your unit away and replace it with a unit already tested by them, or their suppliers. Your old unit is then tested and used for the next client.

We don't provide a hydraulic test on site, but use the service exchange policy. Whether your current engineer has done a test we couldn't possibly comment.

If your engineer tells you something needs refilling use this as a method of gaining some free staff training. If it's a CO2 or water unit they need to discharge it and can do this on-site. You get some hands-on experience and it's an excuse to ensure the units actually have been discharged/refilled at least.

Nick Stokes
Member - 5 posts

He took the three CO2 extinguishers to his van comes back ten mins later saying he has refilled them

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

Hmmmmm is he bafe registered or belong to one of the trade associations i.e. IFEDA, BFC or FIA?

M Tucker
Member - 5 posts

This thread has been going since 2002 and whilst there has been a lot of good advice here it has also proven, to me at least, that most of us are still ignorant of what we should and shouldn't do and there are plenty of people scaremongering and making money out of what we may or may not "have to do".

I cannot count the number of so called "advisers" who have called or visited our shops and told blatent untruths to both myself and the staff in an attempt to sell me something. The only people worse have been so called "Health and Safety" who regularly call or visit only to get a flea in their ear.

To those of you who are decent, honest and, just as important, pragmatic - I apologise but to those who just seem to like to scare people and try and rip them off (how about £97 for a 1Kg powder extinguisher? "it's the law mate, so we have dropped it off with the staff for you" - they even left the screwfix label on the box!) - I have no words polite enough to describe you.

Getting a qualification does not make you an expert - anymore than passing a driving test makes you a good driver. Your businesses will thrive from being helpful, honest and caring, not superior, bullying and obnoxious.

Do I sound bitter ? :-)

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

M Tucker, unfortunately there has always been a element in the fire safety industry who view their privelege position of authority as a license to print money.

As for your legal requirements, the RRO (Regulatory Reform (fire Safety) Order) does not mention fire extinguishers in the entire document. You need to assess the risks in your premises and do what you can to minimise/remove the risk, fire extingushers may form a part of this solution. Any fire safety 'consultant/advisor' that tells you something other than a risk assessment is a legal requirement needs investigating. What you document in your risk assessment becomes a legal requirement, so do ensure it's accurate, up-to-date and thorough.

Should you have the unfortunate experience of a serious fire you will have to stand by your risk assessment and the measures you've taken, so do ask for advice on any area you are uncertain of. Whilst the local fire service don't conduct risk assessments, you may find it useful to speak with them as they are the ones enforcing the legislation, so they should let you know if your provisions are adequate.

£97 for a 1kg ABC Powder is, well, pretty ridiculous. Whilst I agree everyone should buy quality CE Marked BS EN3 compliant, kite marked and BAFE approved equipment you can get these for under £30 retail, some places far less.

There are also those who aim to be different and I'm glad you recognise that those companies exist. IFEDA and the UK Fire Association, for the most part, represent smaller suppliers who you may find are more customer focussed.

The reason I set up my business, in June 2009, is to activley promote a better way to do things. I would rather make a small amount of profit from a customer and keep them, than make a large amount of profit now and never see them again.

Failiure to look after their clients is why the larger fire safety companies are losing customers faster than they are aquiring them. The only way some of them grow is to purchase smaller providers in order to gain market share.

Nick Stokes
Member - 5 posts

I think i really need to take my matter further, we were advised we needed a risk assesment and that it would cost £250, i since found out as we employ less than five people it can be done internally as long as we do it properly. The bloke advised us to use his own company which i dont mind admitting was chubb.

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Only 1 company I know of has CO2 filling kit on their vans - most others have a varying amount of odds & ends with some just having a tool box and a load of new units.

The 4 Co2's referred to earlier have probably been 'rag & tagged' - wiped off, pull sealed and the service label completed.

it's as bad with other types - I see extinguishers in a buliding that are the same ones as last year, have been serviced this year and supposedly 'extended serviced'. I ask the client "did you see him take them out and set them off, strip them & refill them?" and often get the answer "No he never took any outside at all".

It's far easier to workshop fill than have the stuff in the van, plus environmental regulations make the discharge testing (ES) on site difficult, so other than cartridge waters and foams (rarer & rarer these days) I will exchange.

With the bottom falling out of the extinguisher market thanks to Chinese factories churning stuff out for nothing and the internet suppliers reflecting this it's difficult to make a well paid honest living from extinguishes alone.

With the low standards of some servicing people out there it would be as safe to make extinguishers disposable and maintenance free with a mandatory maximum 5 year life in workplaces!

Over provision is another way some suppliers make up for the decline of the probability of the sector too, it's quite easy to cut swathes through the number of extinguishers on sites I deal with.

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

Nick,

Actually you are legally required to have a risk assessment, but you are correct that it can be done internally. This is true regardless how many people are employed.
If you have less than 5 employees you do not have to document it, although it's somewhat difficult to prove you did one in the first place, so it's best to put it in print.
£250 is actually a very good price to have a qualified consultant provide a full survey and documented assessment, particularly from the company you mention as the list price was £649 + VAT in 2008. Unless he's sold you the online DIY version, where you still do it yourself. Having said that, you could indeed have done it yourself for nothing so long as you are competent and satisfied you can identify the likely hazards and risks.
The main reason people choose to use a consultant is the peace of mind it provides knowing that the assessment will cover those risks and you can take appropriate actions from the findings. You may find the risk assessment you recieve from Chubb to have a slightly commercial bias, so do check whether the suggestions are sensible, or a little overkill.
It's unlikely the service engineer did a hydraulic test, I know Chubb use service exchange units. But it's probably difficult to prove either way, although you could try contacting the FIA or BAFE to see if they can inspect the work done.
You may find that speaking to the local branch customer service team and telling them you didn't agree to the prices and the decision maker signed no such order is your best option, if the engineer didn't mark and prices on the paperwork even better. They could raise a credit note and only charge you a fair price for each tested CO2.
I'd have a look on IFEDA, British Fire Consortium or UK Fire Associations website to see if there is a local firm who are more customer focussed. Whilst the national company should be cheaper, economies of scale and all that, they simply are unable to compete with independents in terms of price and often on service these days.

Nick Stokes
Member - 5 posts

It was their online do it yourself version, in which case i have found a checklist which we intend to go through anyway and tick the boxes. We dont actually employ anyone, we have five self employed partners.
We used to emply a local firm but 3 years ago the chubb engineer turned up saying they had bought the local firm out we checked this out first and it turned out to be correct we never had a problem until this time really.

Brett Gilbert
Member - 8 posts

Like I said, Chubb are not growing organically as they seem to upset their customers eventually, so they buy the smaller companies out.
As their engineers are commission based and the biggest money is made at time of refills/testing always make certain that:
1) any unit they state needs replacement is left on-site so you can check it yourself, or take it to a local expert
2) if they tell you some water based units need discharge testing, get some free training from them (not because you want free training, but to ensure the units are discharged)
3) Don't let anyone sign anything which doesn't state a price

There are lots of good engineers that work for Chubb that do a very thorough job. There will always be a rogue element who half-arse it or try to maximise their earnings.
Sadly the same could be said across the industry, so it's just a question of checking what they do and when you've got a good engineer try to keep them. Whilst BAFE, FIA, UKFA, BFC and IFEDA try to promote ethical trading & standards, they can't check everyone all the time.

Anthony Buck
Member - 38 posts

Most good engineers for the big nationals set up their own business after a few years - I know of at least two major clients who moved from a big national to a local firm when it was set up by their engineer

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

Further to Brett's point on the 26th if you choose a company that is a member of a trade association e.g. IFEDA, UKFA etc then you will at least have someone to complain to if you consider the standard of work or the working practices to be less than you desired. If a situation cannot be resovled this can mean an audit of the members work. Equally if you choose a company that is 3rd party accredited i.e. bafe (a requirment of being an IFEDA member) then they are being audited by bafe on a regualr basis and again you have an avenue to pursue if you feel you have been treated unfairly. However, Brett's final point is sadly true.

roy nottrodt
Member - 2 posts

Do water, foam and dry powder extinguishers have to under go a hydraulic stretch test after 10 years use?

Graham Ferris
Member - 19 posts

No - just CO2s

Powder - water and foam require the 5 yearly extended service every 5 years and the basic service every year when its not a 5th year.

Regards
Graham