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email does not exist how come I receive
Member - 6 posts
This is absolutely disgraceful. Merit alone should decide who gets the job. We are always being lectured on not judging people by their skin colour and yet here we have a proposed law saying do just that! If the person is good enough for the job they will be awarded it even if they are purple so lets stop this nonsense now.
As for giving women a head start, they don't need it if they are any good at all.
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James Webster
Member - 2 posts
I consider this move to be outragious. Ability should be the only deciding factor.
What is wrong with our leaders, I beleive they have lost the plot.
Good hardworking and well qualified people originating from the UK are leaving the UK in droves.
I wonder why?
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
Ability should be the deciding factor but many black ( and other) people have been actively discriminated against in the past.
This move will try to balance the difference. I think its long overdue.
The same applies to female applicants. For too long the "glass ceiling" has been entrenched in our society allowing companies and organisations to write the rules as they go along.
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Paul Kreuz
Member - 34 posts
If this ever happens it will be time to leave the country
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
Paul, Looking forward to recieving your postcard LOL
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Mark Hughes
Member - 2 posts
Racism is racism not matter the colour of the skin.
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Stephen Martin
Member - 1 post
Yet another, tinkering, interferring busy-body trying to make a name for herself. The only criterion necessary to be appointed to any position is the ability to carry it out satisfactorily. Any other method will reduce the effective ness of hte appointment.
It makes me wonder how this person was selected for the job 'she' is 'doing' in the first place.
Steve Martin
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James Fairchild
Member - 171 posts
I'll not share my personal opinion on this, but my professional one is that Merit and Ability alone should be the deciding factors when recruiting/appraising.
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
Of course abilty to do the jobs hould be the deciding factors but how many well qualified and suitably experienced candidates were not offered a job based on skin colour and sex in the past prior to legislation being introduced?
The law was changed for a reason and if positive discrimination is what it takes to ensure equality in the workplace then so be it.
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someone somewhere
Member - 13 posts
Yet more social experimentation destined for the "Whoops we got it slghtly wrong 20 years ago" bin.
So much for socialy integrated multiculturism the wedge is just going to be driven a little deeper.
It wouldn't be too long before this 'positive discrimination' would turn to 'negative discrimination' as the tables were turned with no legal re-dress for the new 'victims'.
At least the present 'victims' of discrimination have the law on their side at the moment.
One law for one UK citizen and another law for the other UK citizen.
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Glen Bates
Member - 1 post
How can positive discrimination ensure equality, you are still discriminating against one section of society, whether it be male/female or skin colour, and don't forget age discrimination.
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
Yes you are still discriminating but in a positive fashion.
For example an organisation with 200 staff 80% of whom are male now has a duty under the gender equality guidelines to ensure that recruitment policies envelope all members of society.
To enable employers to fulfill these obligations they will now be able to appoint a female into post by positively discriminating in her favour.
This would only be allowed to happen if the interviewees were equal in every other respect ie skills , qualifications, experience etc.
The same would apply if the situation arose between black and white canditates or members of other ethnic minorities.
I firmly believe that for far too long employers have been neglecting their legal duties under the variuos discrimination acts .
THis is only my interpretation of these proposals. Im sure more experienced and better qualified people on here can add weight to each set of opinions.
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Craig Stuart
Member - 37 posts
I agree Anne. I'm sick to the back teeth of people complaining about these steps being taken. It has been a long time coming. It could and should have been addressed many years ago, I agree. But what is the alternative? Do nothing for another couple of decades? Legislation introduced and designed to avoid discrimination quite simply has not been a deterrent.
My guess is that most of these complaints come from white males...
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Martin Stock
Member - 7 posts
If it could be believed that positive discrimination would only take place if two equal candidates were after the same post then that would be great. For too long some local authorities have been actively carrying this out, but problems arise because the two candidates are not equal. Too many allowances are made and consequently once in post it becomes obvious the person is totally out of their depth. At this point it is too late, any attempt to rectify the matter leads to claims of discrimination.
Yes there should be some changes, but is this the right direction?
Perhaps the best thing this has done is open up the debate and from that will come a fairer system.
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Daniel Sweeney
Member - 7 posts
Speaking as a White Irish Catholic Male, would being Irish and Catholic offset the White Male aspects of my identity and allow me to be assessed on my merits/abilities?
If anti discrimination law is flawed and doesnt act as a deterrent, then change it to address the issues. Positive discrimnination is merely New Speak to justify discrimination against non- fashionably protected categories of employees. Linking Anti Discrimination legislation to Human Rights is the only way forward here. I believe our cousins in the colonies are regretting some of their Positive Action (PC Speak) measures. Interestingly, I believe that in Southern California Americans of European ancestry are now in a minority and could claim protection under positive discriination measures, IF they were designed symmetrically. How likely is that?
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someone somewhere
Member - 13 posts
Speaking from a "White Atheist Male's" point of view.
I don't recruit staff but I'm puzzled to know why a potential employer would favour an 'inferior' 'white' potential employee over a 'superior' 'black' employee, that would not just be racist that would be spiteful and potentially harmful to the business.
I know I'd personally want what was best for the business and for me.
Therefore I believe this to be re-action to symptoms not to the root cause.
The symptoms show up in government statistics but the underlying cause is often ignored.
On a personal view I've worked in some pretty hazardous places around the world and when you literally put your life in someone else's hands you want the best hands not the right colour hands.
(White Male) (We're entitled to opinions too and shouldn't receive discrimination because we're White Males).
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
Im just waiting to hear from a one legged, black,lesbian,wiccan of adcanced years to tell us that there is no discrimination in the UK workforce.
Maybe then I'll accept it.
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Daniel Sweeney
Member - 7 posts
I agree entirely with your comment Ann. However given that all of the legislation relevant to your comment is in fact symmetrical (Even DDA if you chjallenge the inclusion of the one legged person as disabled!) the young hetorosexual ethnic Malay Chinese Christian with higher qualifications/experience may feel rightly aggrieved if your comparator gets the job they have both applied for, on the basis of their protected status.
We cannot remove discrimination by legalising another form of discrimination. The legislation that people seem to be frantically searching for is equality legislation rather than anti discrimination law, which reuires the promotion of equality of opportunity NOT outcomes. It requires a deal more thought, less lawyers and a great deal of education.
Interestingly Canada prohibited discrimination wihout justification on extremely broad grounds which sort of negated the effect that vociferous lobby groups can have in producing a hierarchy of discrimination.
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
If the candidate you describe feels aggrieved then they have every right to do so because ,in your description, they are more experienced and higher qualified. This ruling would only come into play if both candidates were equally suited to the job based on skills and abilities.
If 2 people with the same qualifications, the same length and quality of experience and were deemd identical in every aspect of their application, the employer would then have the opportunity to engage the one who reflected the companies obligation to fulfill their equality duty.
I understand your point of view.
Happy Easter !
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Colin England
Member - 41 posts
I quote Anne McAllister "Yes you are still discriminating but in a positive fashion.
For example an organisation with 200 staff 80% of whom are male now has a duty under the gender equality guidelines to ensure that recruitment policies envelope all members of society." Sorry Anne but you are absolutely wrong on all counts.
The "Gender Equality Guidelines" are not law and any employer giving them as the reason for discrimiantion would be rapidly put in thie rplace with heavy fines ( I hope).
The EU Sex Discrimination Directive does not allow for the position which Harriet Harman proposes to adopt. So we are safe -- for the moment.
How about setting up a campaign to get that woman deslected afor the next GeneraL election?
Colin
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Tami K
Member - 2 posts
Critics of this move have clearly never been asked about their plans to marry and have children in a job interview, how religious they are, or - most gallingly - whether any potential boyfriends would have to convert to their religion. Yet I have been asked all these questions, and more, during job interviews at SEEMINGLY REPUTABLE FIRMS!
To all those who say that merit should be the overriding factor, I couldn't agree more! But then what will you do about biased interviewers like the one above? People who belittle the achievements of BAME candidates, because they can't get over the fact that not everyone in this country shares the same genetic make-up and religious beliefs?
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Jeffrey Thomas
Member - 13 posts
It's been interesting to read these comments some of which are no suprise in this day and age in this country. The comments made are a prime example of what is wrong with this country in that the 'do gooders' have too much say and are void of any common sense. They preach to others that there should be no discrimiation but yet also preach that there should be discrimination where it suits their personnal beliefs and views. These views( in their world) should be imposed on others for the greater good. This is just simply double standards and hypocrisy. Discrimination of any kind should be unaaceptable and people should very simply be judged on merit alone. To deny white males from applying for jobs which will deny them the right to earn an honest living and compete with others on merit is morally repugnant and uncivilised. Unfortunately, the absence of common sense by creating ethnic and female short lists in what is seen as 'positive action' is in reality dressed up 'negative action'. It will only serve to anger a large swath of the population and further undermine democracy and order in this country. The old saying of 'to look to the future we should look at the past' should ring warning bells. Legislation like this will significantly contribute to an already swelling of resentment towards these 'do gooders' and the inabilities of successive governments that that persue such unfair, dictatorial and inept policies. As one member pointed out - they will only realise their mistake when it is too late.
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PHILIP JONES
Member - 2 posts
I think we are fast approaching the day when the phrase ..............."will the last one to leave please switch out the lights"..............will become a reality.
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Peter Travers
Member - 3 posts
Just get on with life -the real world is unfair it- has always been unfair -it will always be unfair - just think how unfair it is in Iraq. Move on.
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email does not exist how come I receive
Member - 6 posts
Well done Jeffrey, at last the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth which has not been dressed up to protect the imcompetent!
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
......To deny white males from applying for jobs which will deny them the right to earn an honest living .......the absence of common sense by creating ethnic and female short lists .......I wonder how many of the men responding here actually read the article?
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Jeffrey Thomas
Member - 13 posts
Ooops! I appear to have touched a raw nerve. Never mind the article as the proposals by the government are quite clear as they and others see them as the only way to address the apparent problem. If they are pushed through it wil not be acceptable to discriminate against females and ethnic minorities etc but it will be ok to discriminate against white males and will be called 'positive action'. If this makes sense to anyone then perhaps they need help. What is so wrong in treating everyone the same regardless of their sex, race, creed and disabilty etc? It is after all called 'equal opportunities'. Perhaps it should actually be called 'equal but unequual (where it suits) opportunities'. Justice and fairness are core values to a civilised society and when these break down you just eventually end up with hatred and anarchy.
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Colin England
Member - 41 posts
In response toTami K
At interview I have been asked questions in Latin! I have also been asked what is the calorific value of coal - both in an interviews for an HR job! I recall an interview at The London Borough of Brent where I was interviewed by an all black female interview panel and was haranged all the whole time by the then Leader of the Council - a lady who is now a senior Labour MP. I did not get the job.
I also worked for Greenwich Council I was told time and time again that I would not be propomoted until I was qualified -- but the Director and Council generally put every obstacle in my way to get qualified. At the same time women and Ethnic Minorities were given day release, paid time off for revision and for the exama and etc.
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Stewart Clarke
Member - 1 post
Personally I don't think discrimination in any form can ever be considered a positive thing. Our efforts should be towards removing discrimination via education, not by introducing more.
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Anne McAllister
Member - 111 posts
Excellent point Stewart.
Changing behaviour is easier than changing thoughts , however.
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Nicholas Batten
Member - 13 posts
Jeffery Thomas puts it best and I agree entirely with his comments. Positive discrimination is discrimination nonetheless and just as reprehensible as any other variety. Harman is mistaken in many of her policies and a liability. She and those of her ilk must be vigorously resisted. The fact that people like her can rise to such high office is a sad indictment of our system. This is what you get when you elect governments of upper middle class liberals who are slaves to their own political correctness. Men who agree with these feminist neo liberals are fools by the way. This sort of proposal is really a type of fascism. What New Labour is about is forcing people to think and do as they do.
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Kevin Brown
Member - 61 posts
....but HH is a shining example of the runaway success of positive intervention in the selection of New Labour parliamentary candidates, along with various others including Hazel Blears and Ruth Kelly. As one of my ex-managers (sorry, personagers) said once to the enlightenment of the whole office "The best man for the job is a woman - every time". Unfortunately she failed to let on which woman she meant. There is something farce-like about our British parliamentary democracy advancing rapidly to the rear proudly proclaiming 'We excel at mediocrity!' You have to either laugh or cry.
Personally, I'm reminded of the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketch where PC is a producer auditioning DM who's come, as a one-legged man to read for the part of Tarzan. PC delivers the great line "Personally, I have nothing against your right leg. Unfortunately neither do you".
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Helen C
Member - 14 posts
I have posted in the immigration thread if you would care to read it..ithe white woman does not get a fair deal either
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