fire extinguisher training

Iain Sanderson
Member - 28 posts

Training is required to enable any one to effectively use a fire extinguisher without putting themselves or other at risk. Therefore to require the provision but not insist on the training would be folly.

Geoff Porteous
Member - 22 posts

I agree with Iian on this however with vehicles the issue is when to use it and when to run !

Kevin Brown
Member - 76 posts

The issue is always when to use it and when to run. The user has to make an instant risk assessment (just as when you cross the road) and decide whether the desired outcome justifies the risk taken. If you're driving your employer's van (for instance) and it bursts into flame spontaneously you may not feel motivated to resort to using the extinguisher. On the other hand, if you're involved in an RTA with dear old Auntie Mabel still stuck in the back struggling with her seat belt you might feel better disposed to take action!

Kevin Brown
Member - 76 posts

I forgot to say that the principle is the same for offices, shops etc. Do you need to fight the fire to make an escape? Do the risks outweigh the outcome or does your insurance cover and Business Continuity Plan protect your business better than any number of portable appliances ever could?
IF IN DOUBT, GET OUT.

les potter
Member - 23 posts

If you are an employer you are currently reguired, under the regulatory reform ( fire safety) order 2005 to give all staff a minimum of 1 hours training in the use of portable fire equipment.. this now extendend to businesses where all of the staff are self employed but work for the same company.

IMO the taxi driver in the event of a fire within the vehicle could possibly be deemed to be responsible for the safety of its passengers in the same manner as an office manager would for the visitors to the site.

if im not mistaken, ( please correct me if i am ) most local authorities are asking for either 1kg or 2kg powder extinguishers to be installed in the cabs.

in all cases. EVERY fire extinguisher with a BS kite mark on it has the instructions printed on the front stating how to use it and what types of fires it can be used on.

les potter
Member - 23 posts

Additionally i agree 100% with kevins comment IF IN DOUBT- GET OUT

robert davey
Member - 9 posts

hi les,
you are correct about the 1 or 2kg powder extinguishers. the majority of hackney cabs work solely for themselves. i still feel that as the council insist on extinguishers being carried then there should be mandatory training in their use. who reads the side of an extinguisher? not many cab drivers i know thats for sure. however, do the council have a duty to insist, rather than provide, that training is undertaken by all.

Mark Talbot-Sykes
Member - 16 posts

Geoff – the statement you will hear all the time with Fire Training is ‘if safe to do so’ and that does not change irrespective of the situation you are faced with.

Kevin – I find your comments on ‘motivated’ completely baffling and maybe I am naive but I don’t see how Aunty Mabel figures in any decision to protect yourself, passenger or your vehicle!

You do not need to fight the fire to affect an escape, although in reality you may have to but it’s not a requirement ‘if safe to do so’. Any information (Plan) provided for employees will tell the worker what to do in the case of a fire!

Any good trainer will tell the delegates to read the instruction on an extinguisher before use, in every situation. With the number of extinguishers available and the fact that most are all red the need to read the label/instructions before use is very important. Having said that, training is essential because the instructions on some extinguishers are not very clear or specific of certain types of fires.

One last thing to mention, when arranging training for your staff, make sure the training is suitable and sufficient because the technique of using an extinguisher in an office is completely different to using an extinguisher on a vehicle fire.

Regards,

Mark

Kevin Brown
Member - 76 posts

Mark, Aunty Mabel is a passenger. That being the case I might feel more of an incentive to stand by with an extinguisher in case of need while she is being extricated from the car (by her own efforts or otherwise). If I'm alone and driving a van full of combustible or volatile material I'll assess the risk differently.

Mark Talbot-Sykes
Member - 16 posts

Kevin – sorry my misunderstanding. I was thrown off by the word motivated.
Mark

les potter
Member - 23 posts

carrying a fire extinguisher in the cab of a taxi is a requirement of the hackney licence. training to extinguish a fire in a vehicle is very specialised with many considerations. the vehicle is insured and is easily replaced. a life however is not easily replaced.
in the event of a fire the simplest and easiest risk assessment is the obvious one, GETOUT...... STAY OUT.....

As to the powder extinguisher; dry powder extinguishers contain withingthe powder, ammonium phosphate, which us used to prevent the clogging of the powder. this has been known to burn the tongue, throat, stomach and lungs when inhaled. it severely reduces visibility and causes severe breathing difficulties.

therefore i would suggest GET OUT.... GET YOUR PASSENGER OUT... STAY OUT...
CALL THE FIRE BRIGADE...

Mark Talbot-Sykes
Member - 16 posts

Les - I fail to see how pointing out the disadvantages of a DP can be used to justify not to use it, you could apply the same to any extinguisher even water. Surely the point is, if in doubt get out and don’t forget Aunty Mabel , if safe to do so and you have been trained tackle the fire.

Mark

Iain Sanderson
Member - 28 posts

The point raised in this debate to 'read the instructions before use' does not mean that with the flames rising in front of you begin to read the instructions - it is before the fire occurs and that would not constitute training anyway.
The point I was initially making is that if the extinguisher someone, particulalry the male of the species, will try to use it even if they have no training to the danger of themselfs and others.
Part of the training is to give someone the ability to make the decision if it is beyond their capabilities and yu do not get that on a label.

Mark Talbot-Sykes
Member - 16 posts

Iain – I have to totally disagree. To read the instructions before using an extinguisher is something you should ‘always do’ especially when about to use it in anger. Good training will make the point about when to use and when not to use, but in the end it will be down to the operator at the time making a judgement call (risk assessment) as for your species comment, no comment.

Geoff Porteous
Member - 22 posts

I think if everyone addressed the original situation I.E taxi drivers, rather than respond to eachothers glib ,periferal situational creations Robert Davey might arrive at a sensible conclusion to his enquiry. Yes Robert its a good idea to have one of these things, the conditions of your licence may dictate it. Take advice on the best type to buy and how to use it, as a vehicle fire does not allow much time to "Read the label" With reference to other members comments on use it if "Safe to do so" How do you know how far a fire is progressed under your bonnet ??
Some members in my opnion have it right , Get out retire to a place of safety call the brigade, thats why you have insurance and as a chartered safety practioner of many years thats what i would advise my kids to do.

les potter
Member - 23 posts

i have been in working in in the fire industry years now too, obviously i have had the relevent training etc. i had a company car a number of years ago while still working in the industry for a major fire company and at the time had a boot full of every type and class of extinguisher available, this vehicle caught fire on the A2 heading towards canterbury. my family,including my children were in the car at the time. what do you think i did ?

FIGHT THE FIRE ?
like hell i did, i got my kids and wife out of the car and walked them back down the road about half a mile. within 90 seconds what was smoke coming into the car was a mass of flames. yes the car was a right off as were the stock extinguishers, and yes my kids are now many years older and all safe.

MY point you can know how to fight a fire, but no matter how much training you have, NOTHING can prepared you for the reality.... GET OUT, GET your passengers OUT... STAY OUT..

robert davey
Member - 9 posts

hi all, thanks for all your comments but my original enquirey was "if the council insist that an extinguisher must be carried is there then a legal obligation on the council to make sure that each driver is trained in its use" othewise what is the point in insisting on you carrying one?

Richard Johns
Member - 15 posts

There is not a legal obligation on the council to make sure the driver is trained. However st is a legal obligation on the driver to ensure he/she knows how to use it under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. Councils insist on drivers carrying extinguishers as part of the licence and to help ensure customer safety.

Richard Johns
Member - 15 posts

There is not a legal obligation on the council to make sure the driver is trained. However it is a legal obligation ON THE DRIVER to ensure he/she knows how to use it under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. Councils insist on drivers carrying extinguishers as part of the licence and to help ensure customer safety.

Gavin Inches
Member - 11 posts

Les Potter wrote "If you are an employer you are currently reguired, under the regulatory reform ( fire safety) order 2005 to give all staff a minimum of 1 hours training in the use of portable fire equipment.. this now extendend to businesses where all of the staff are self employed but work for the same company. "
As far as I am aware, there is no such requirement. Could Les indicate where he found this?

Richard Johns
Member - 15 posts

You are right - there is no such legal requirement anywhere. You probably aware training dependant on findings of risk assessment, competancy of individuals etc etc. But to be honest loads of businesses dont do or know how to do fire risk assessments etc. This is a sweeping statement but true.

les potter
Member - 23 posts

please read fire regulation 4; Fire-fighting and detection paragraph 2, a b and c

An employer shall where nessessary.............. maybe i am imagining the line that states "their training and equipment available to them is adiquate.... when i have time i will also point out the section in the 1997 work place regulations, but its late now... both of these are part of the current RR (FS )O

les potter
Member - 23 posts

a few more pages with reference to the training that may be of interest to you gavin,

RR FS O [ 4. (1) (i), 15 (2) (a) , 21 (1) & 2 and schedule 1 part 3. all indicating that the empployees must be given adiquate training, must carry out regular fire drills. you cannot charge the employees for this and if an employee loses money because you have failed to comply to the order he can recover his loss from you .

sorry but i really must retire to my pit now :D 00:02

Gavin Inches
Member - 11 posts

Thanks - I am fully awaree of the training requirements. It was the " a minimum of 1 hours training in the use of portable fire equipment.." I was taking issue with - it simply is not there!

Chris Johnson
Member - 5 posts

Hi All, have just had a very interesting read. Loads of confusion and strong opinion, even within the Trade and Experts. Can I add my bit?

Two months ago, I was invited to speak on Fire Extinguishers in Licensed Vehicles. This was for a local County Licensing Officers Forum. Prompted by the problem of drivers, using an extinguisher from another drivers cab, for the test. I had been in the same debate with boats on inland waterways. Suggestion; put the Registration Number or Formal Service Certificate on Extinguisher.

I was very shocked to find that out of 15 District Councils who attended, they all had their own policy. Some say, none, just run. Others quoted many regulations and guidelines. We need one regulation, guideline, from Central Government. To cover the UK.

Type of Fire Extinguisher; I carry a Foam Mist. I am well aware of the serious dangers and confusion of Powder; BC & ABC.

Training; We always give free training with any purchase, advise on use in vehicles, not to open the bonnet etc. Read Instructions.

Installation; I advise a firm mount in front of the drivers seat, with a cover, (put the seat forward to the user with short legs! and try to miss any wires or fuel pipes when installing).

Service; It is a workplace and you must speak to your insurance, get a written reply! We advise regular safety checks by the driver, annual inspection and service by a "Competent Person". No need for a service visit, unless in a bulk yard/use... just pop in with cab.

I hope this helps, please continue and let me know if you agree or have any further comments on this. Forward the site/debate details to your local District Council Licensing Officer for consideration?

Chris Johnson
Member - 5 posts

Just to add; we protect many mini bus and coaches as well, often with a further unit at the rear. Work vehicles; (ABC Powder units for Plumbers with gas bottles), CAN OFTEN BE MOUNTED IN VEHICLE AND REMOVED TO WORKPLACE.

We just need to think in advance about the risks, be reasonable and act responsibly; that is what Fire Risk Assessment is all about.