Fire Safety

Anonymous

No it doesnt. Its all down to your interpretation of the following:

The Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regulations 1997 (as amended), impose a duty on employers to ensure that every person employed to work in a workplace shall be given appropriate information about, and instruction and training in the fire precautions to be taken or observed in the workplace, including the action to be taken in case of fire. Records shall be kept of all staff fire instruction and any drill that is carried out.

Section 2(2)(c) of the Health and Safety at Work Act etc 1974 states that it shall be the duty of every employer, so far as is reasonably practicable, to provide such information, instruction, training and supervision as is necessary to ensure the health and safety at work of his/her employees.

Gordon Robertson
Member - 1 post

Please advise details of Fire Safety Order due to become legislation May 2004.

Ciaron Dunne
Member - 85 posts

Gordon,

Please see the Workplacelaw article 'Fire Certificates Out in Overhaul of Fire Safety Rules':

http://www.workplacelaw.net/display.php?resource_id=2513

You can also download the ODPM proposals in full from:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_fire/documents/page/odpm_fire_600638.pdf

Hope that helps

Ciaron

John Gallacher
Member - 15 posts

Guidance from the Home Office states that on the first day of employment a new employee should be given a walkround of the buidling and shown the location of exits, break glass points, extinguishers and the assembly point. Fire Induction training should then be completed as soon as possbile thereafter (within 4 weeks is advised).

Evacuation/Drills should be held a minimum of once per 6 months and should include all new employees since the last drill. At least two thirds of staff should attend. Many companies including our own hold drills every 3 months and operate a different scenario each time. i.e one exit cannot be used due to supposed fire.

Hope this helps.

John

Alan Wood
Member - 4 posts

is the width of an escape route (1m) a recommendation or regulation. If recommendation what is the minimum width acceptable.

Anonymous

The minimum width required for an escape route is the product of an equation considering the number of people likely to need to use the route, the time allowed for escape. Details in Building Regs Approved Doc B or the guides to the Fire Precautions Act if relevant to the premises concerned. Minimum exit width in Approved Doc B Table 5

Maximum number minimum width mm

of people

50 750*

110 850

220 1050

more than

220 +5 per person

May be reduced to 530 for gangways between fixed storage racking other than in public areas purpose group 4.

Sian Pearce
Member - 3 posts

We have an online basic fire awareness training course that all of our employees are required to take. Should our employees in our Dublin office also be reuquired to take it or is the law different for Dublin?

John Bartlett
Member - 5 posts

Claire
The basic principals are still the same in Dublin so the simple answer is Yes, employees in Dublin should be doing the course.

Hope this helps

John

Anonymous

Thanks for that John. One more question please - I am sruggling to make a proportion of our employees take the test, despite repeated requests. What are the legal implications should we be investigated?

John Bartlett
Member - 5 posts

Like most health and safety consultants I try and have have several cards up my selve for dealing with the 'difficult members of staff'. What you are trying to do is win hearts and minds. Perhaps your employees view this request as 'health and safety gone mad' Who are the proportion of employees causing the problem?

With the fire issue I always intially state that people will have more issues in the home than at work. How will they get out, how will they raise the alarm, do the children know what to do etc. All these points are normaly very well covered in the workplace but home is where the real issue is.
Second approach could be to show them the Bradford City fire video, that may focus a few minds.
Last approach which for me is really the last resort is to remind them about their duties under the HSAWA74 Sect 7 and 8.If that fails you move into the HR area of written warnings as they are breaking the law! Anyone not sure what Sect 7 & 8 is about just read the H&S Law poster that should be displayed in all workplaces. I consider that I have failed doing this last approach and in 15 years have only come close on a couple of occasions. Hope you don't have to take this route. Trying to manage some of the issues in the workplace is like pushing a pea up Mount Everest with your nose!
Good Luck and hope this helps

John

Anonymous

I have several fire exit that goes onto a shared (private) alley. I am constantly battling with the other user due to rubbish build up etc.
I also have an issue where the fire exit signs on the outer door (inside/out) have been removed and replaced with the sharer's shop signage. They also have a shopfront elsewhere. I have repeatedly asked them to keep the gangway clear, and respect the fire exit. What can I do.

John Mc Guinness
Member - 17 posts

Report this matter to the Local Authority or HSE Inspector

Peter Reading
Member - 5 posts

You have identified a significant finding in your risk assessment that impacts directly on the escape of people from your premises. If co-operation with your neighbour fails you should contact your local fire safety manager at your nearest fire station who has power to take enforcement action.

The HSE inspector whilst they may make comment, they operate a protocol with the fire service to inform the local fire and rescue authority who will undertake enforcement. Fire Service administers and enforces general fire safety. The EHO and HSE enforce general health and safety and fire in an industrial process.

Shaun McKeever
Member - 1 post

I notice above that some people have difficulty with persuading people to undertake fire safety training.

I find that people can be a little embarassed when they suddenly realise that they do not actually know what to do.

I start my evacuation drills, not by operating the alarm, but by picking on an employee and telling them they have discovered a fire. I tell them that their computer is alight and ask them to take the appropriate action. I tell them I am timing them and that this should be treated as real. I did this yesterday and it took 5 minutes before the fire alarm was operated.

It tends to focus minds!

Scott Harrop
Member - 3 posts

Can you please tell me if it is against the law or a recommendation that the fire exit in our office must have its security grille removed when people are working in the vicinity? There is a break glass holder for the key to open the security shutters. Is this sufficient or do I have to open and shut this as a routine and possible compromise to security?

I only ask as there is good and clear provision to make an escape and I have noticed in a few hotels that adjoining rooms have a fire door that is locked with a break glass key facility very close by.

Your advice on this will be appreciated.

Regards.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

Section 5.11 of Approved Document B States "In general, doors on escape routes (whether or not the doors are fire doors), shall either not be fitted with lock, latch or bolt fastenings, or they should only be fitted with simple fastenings that can be readily operated from the side approached by people making an escape. The operation of these fastenings should be readily apparent; without the use of a key and without having to manipulate more than one mechanism."
Part 2.19.5 of the Technical Handbooks supporting the Building (Scotland) Act states " Where an exit door from a room, storey or a door across an escape route has to be secured against entry when the building or part of the building is occupied, it should only be fitted with a lock or fastening which is readily operated, without a key, from the side approached by people making their escape."
These are the requirements for new or altered buildings and they are the benchmark standards for carrying out a Fire Risk Assessment under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order and Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act respectively.
Therefore both the situation in your office and the one you describe in hotes is unacceptable.

Peter Reading
Member - 5 posts

On the basis of the description that Scott has given on the 19th December 2007 the answer is ‘yes’ security grilles should be removed while people are working.

The requirement for 'single action operation' of a door described in 20/12/07 would usually be interrupted by an enforcing authority to mean:

• The pushing of a panic bar – door opens
• The operation of a door handle – door opens
• The operation of a key – door opens.
This is particularly important where members of the public are present and may not be a familiar with the door operation so it should be as simple as possible hence the need to state - single action.

On a risk appropriate basis and with staff training it is possible to move slightly from the single action position and here some authorities will accept a key in a box or a break glass mechanism.

A fire authority will again consider it reasonable where high security is a feature to secure escape doors when used for example, in banks and building societies to have electrical/mechanical locking and release systems, these though are associated with areas that are covered by CCTV and staff can usually see any developing fire or where the building has automatic smoke detection.

Whatever mechanism you accept and deploy it should not materially delay the movement of people or significantly increases the escape time to a place of safety. Every one should be able to reach a place of comparative safety within about 50 seconds from the moment they start to move.

Peter

Victoria Jenkins
Member - 3 posts

Can someone let me know if it's a legal requirement to have trained fire wardens?


Regards,

Victoria

Holly James
Member - 4 posts

Hello Victoria,

Employers have a legal responsibility to employ competent people to act as fire wardens in the event of a fire or emergency situation.

Fire Wardens need to have a basic understanding of what causes fire, how it spreads, and how it can be controlled. The yalso need to understand the role of a Fire Warden and to be competent to use fire fighting equipment if appropraite to do so.

Workplace Law provide in-house Fire Warden Training. For more information, please call me on 01223 431 072, or email me at holly.james@workplacelaw.net

Kind Regards,
Holly

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

There is no requirement in law to specifically have fire wardens in all premises. Under the Regulatory (Fire Safety) ORder and Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act all staff require to have appropriate training in relation to fire safety but there is no. However, an adequate and sufficient Fire Risk Assessment carried out under either of the aforementioned legislation may indicate the need for fire wardens who would require a higher level of training than other staff. The need is dictated by numerous factors including the size of the premises, the number of persons emplyed and/or resorting to the premises,the nature of the fire risk within the premises etc.

Victoria Jenkins
Member - 3 posts

Thanks very much for your answers

Victoria

Lisa Dormon
Member - 21 posts

I've been told that my buildings current alarm system, which has a mixture of Sirens and Bells, should be changed to one system only.

Can anyone direct me to the relevant legislation about this?

Also, if we don't do anything about it, who would care? And what is the penalty if we do ignore it?

(I am actually on the side of getting it changed, I just need to show a decent recent for it to the managers)

thanks

Ivor Doyle
Member - 1 post

Lisa,
The principle is so that you have one sound to warn relevant persons in the premises that it is a fire warning, which should trigger the evacuation as designed for the premises. Where you have two different types of sounders, persons may get confused with which sound is the fire alarm etc. So a fire alarm must only have one type of sound.

The legislation is Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 fire alarms Article 13. However, the standards dealing with fire alarms is normally British Standard (BS) 5839 Part 1 2002 for commercial premises. The Health and Safety Signs and Signals Regulations (I think 1996) deals with the one sound issue, which is also contained within the BS.

The legislation will be enforced by the enforcer which is probably the fire service, although there are several others. Articles 8 to 22 deals with fire safety duties by the resposnbile person. Usually the employer if it is a workplace. (There can be more than one reponsible person e.g. multi occupied).

Offences e.g. prosecution are dealt with under Article 32 with appeals in Article 35.

Who cares? If there is no clear guidance on fire alarm / evacuation etc you and your other relevant persons might care one day if you have the misfortune of a fire. If there is no warning or a confused one, your relevant persons may be affected by the fire and I bet they will care then! Penalty in this case may be injury or death! Penalty from the legslation, once proven, can be fine, prison or both!

The law is like any other safety law, and its down to the responsible person(s) to implement like any other health and safety issue. Most fire service authorities have a policy that if you experience a fire, a follow up safety audit will probably follow.

Can you afford to take the risk especially when 65% to 70% of all fires in UK are now deliberate. Hope the information helps.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

When carrying out a Fire Risk Assessment the benchmark standard that the fire alarm should be assessed against is BS5839 Part 1 2002. Section 9.4.2 of that standard states "All fire alarm sounders within a building should have similar sound characteristics, unless particular conditions such as an area of high background noise makes this impracticable; in this case other types of fire alarm may also be provided". The local Fire and Rescue Service as the enforcers of the fire safety legislation would deem that ignoring different sounders in the fire risk assessment inappropriate and as such issue a notice under the legislation. Failure to compy with this could ultimately lead to criminal prosecution.

Lisa Dormon
Member - 21 posts

Thank you Iain and Ivor.

I'm being told to "chill" about this. The Managers feelings are, as long as we have an alarm it doesn't matter if its bells or Sirens or Both, as long as the employees know to evacuate on either. So we won't be ignoring either of the sounds.

This issue is also hampered because we are a sub let, and our Landlord should be responsible for the alarm system (they have 3/4's of the building, we have a 1/4) and they say they don't have any money to change it.

It also sounds like someone will only check or enforce the issue if there is Fire. And as an office we have a low risk of this.

Thanks again for the legislation, but I have a feeling I'm fighting a losing battle.

Lisa

MARY DIAS - MURTAGH
Member - 2 posts

I need to do a risk assmenent of the community centre I work in which I have never done before and is a procedure that hasn't been put in place before. Is there a 'template' document I can work from? Or at least some easy to follow step by step style guides? If so where can I find them? Please help, i'm getting bogged down in jargon and feel like running away every time I see the huge amounts of legislation there is to read!

Kevin Brown
Member - 88 posts

Try http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/
You should be able to obtain a copy of 'Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Small & Medium Places of Assembly' (downloadeable as .pdf). @ http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk7

Peter Reading
Member - 5 posts

Mary,

In addition to the CLG web site do look on the Fire Protection Association web site at http://www.thefpa.co.uk/Resources/Publications.htm they have some very good examples.

Peter

MARY DIAS - MURTAGH
Member - 2 posts

Many thanks Peter and Kevin.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

For those in Scotland the site to go to is www.infoscotland.com/firelaw

Abby Stanley
Member - 3 posts

I have been told by a supplier that break glass mechanisms are now illegal and should be replaced by ceramic tubes. Is this true?

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

I'm not sure where your supplier got this information from, or what his motive was for giving you this information, but I have always felt that the use of break glass devices on escape routes could be dangerous and I usually recommend the ceramic type. I know that the guidance only usually recommends this type in food preperation areas or sleeping accomodaion areas but I have seen some nasty accidents when people have tried removing them for normal access reasons and that's why I usually recommned them.

Ian Huitson
Member - 3 posts

As part of the rapid response team for our site we recently had a fire evacuation test of one of the buildings on site. The biggest complaint we got was that the fire alarm was to loud!!
Is there a legally bound upper db limit for fire alarms?

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

To my knowledge there is no upper limit but obviously if it was too loud you would fall foul of other health and safety legislation. The problem with fire alarm sounders is that if you don't have them in every room, and therefore some have to be very loud in order to hear them in the rooms which don't have them. This is very noticable when you leave a room without a sounder and go into one where one is operating - obviously in an ideal world you would have one in every room which was set at the required level but of course this would be very expensive.
The levels should have been measured by the installer but if you feel that they are not correct you should have them checked.

Ian Huitson
Member - 3 posts

Thanks Alan

Our SHE rep is setting up a noise test when everyones out of the building next

Ian H

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

Section 9.4.1 of BS 5839 Part 1 2002 provides information on audibility levels. "A minimum sound level of either 65 dB(A), or 5 dB(A) above any other noise likely to persist for a period longer than 30 s, whichever is the greater, should be produced by the sounders in all accessible parts of the building except as may be recommended in 8.3. If the fire routine for the premises requires the audible alarm to arouse sleeping persons then the minimum sound level should be 75 dB(A) at the bedhead with all doors shut. This will not guarantee that every person will be awakened but can reasonably be expected to wake a sleeping person in most circumstances. Due to the short period for which the fire alarm sound should be experienced, damage to hearing is unlikely to be caused by sound levels below 120 dB(A). Where levels higher than this might be required, special provisions (such as visual signals) may be necessary."
Section 9.3 also states "A larger number of quieter sounders rather than a few very loud sounders may be preferable in order to prevent excessive sound levels in some areas."

Karen Reenie
Member - 1 post

I have been with current employer for 17 months and have never had a fire drill/practice. Neither have been advised on the escape routes or what to do in the event of a fire. I work in a 3 storey building working in the attic, the only means of escape is a door on the ground floor for which would have to go down 4 flights of stairs to reach, is my employer breaking any fire regulations?

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Karen, Always a little difficult to comment without knowing all the facts but from what you say your employer is not complying with his/her fire safety responsibilities.
One of the first duties that any responsible and caring employer should do for new staff is to explain the fire procedure and what you are expected to do in a fire situation. I would have expected that within 17 months you should have taken part in a fire drill - have they carried one out and you were on holiday or have they just not carried one out? Have you heard the fire alarm and is it tested?
Obviously, from what you say you work in a single means of escape building and this type of layout can cause problems in a fire situation as you have obviously realised - it is important in this type of situation that fire doors are kept closed, rubbish is not stored in the staircase and the exit doors are easy to open and not obstructed. It is also important that staff know what to do.
Your employer should have carried out a Fire Risk Assessment which should have covered all of these aspects - if you feel that they haven't and you are uncomfortable with asking the question you can always go to the Fire Authority and discuss your concerns with them but ask to keep the matter confidential. If they feel your employer is not acting within the law they should make an insection and check the facts for themselves.
Hope this helps. Alan

Anne McAllister
Member - 124 posts

This is a very interesting thread.
Can anyone advise on the legal implications of employees working in the homes of clients .In particular a service consisting of 3 individual flats and one office all located on the same floor(ground).
Because these are the homes of vulnerable adults (and with respect to their privacy and choice )there are no "fire escapes" as such,the assumption being that the staff and their clients would exit the building using the nearest door ,either front or back. If safe to do so, exiting via the front door would lead them onto a small corridor and outside to safety. However ,exiting via the back door would lead directly outside but would involve having to navigate a path around the back gardens of the building to get to the front and therefore away from the building.
Would this be a matter of concern ?
And if so would the housing association who rents the property to an organisation be responsible for making changes or would the organisation be responsible?

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Anne, If this is your employees place of work you will need to undertake a Risk Assessment to establish that it is safe for your staff to work there. From what you say they are Ground Floor Flats with a front and rear exit so there should not be a problem with escape - remember there will also probably be windows which could be used and if its safe for the residents it's probaly safe for your staff.
What you will need to impress on your staff is the requirement to report any problems with safety eg faulty fire equipment, fire doors, gas/electrical appliances, obstructed fire exits etc. You would need to set up a Reporting Procedure to the Housing Association/Organisation so that you have a written record of what was reported and when.
Hope that helps. Alan

Anne McAllister
Member - 124 posts

Thanks Alan it does help but what if the "residents/tenents" are disabled i.e. elderly requiring physical assistance, a wheelchair user,and severely learning/intelletually disabled also?
The staff could easily use a window if necessary but they couldnt.
Id like to now what the legal requirements of the employees ( and therefore the employer) would be in this scenario.
Should the employer be advising that the staff get out and stay out?
Leave the rescue to the fire service ?
Im uncomfortable with that but would like to know the legal position if possible.
Thanks

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Hi Anne, The organisation that placed the residents in the property should have risk assessed the needs of the residents and adapted the building accordingly and produced a Care Plan. The building may have also been adapted to meet individual needs eg level access, visible/audible fire alarms, wide doors etc and obviously your staff would need to be aware of these aspects which you should incorporate into your Fire Risk Assessment.
The question of evacuation of the residents is also one that the organisation that placed the residents there will need to have considered because presumably your staff will not be there 24/7 and so the plan will need to work at all times and obviously your staff may not be there. However, your staff will need to be aware of the details of the fire and evacuation procedure because they may be part of it and could provide valuable assistance. When it comes to assisting the residents this will very much depend on the training and skills of the individual concerned and the urgency of the situation. Let's take a hypothetical situation - you have a member of staff visiting a person that is not very well and is in bed and a fire occurs in the kitchen - what would you expect your member of staff to do - fight the fire, leave the person in bed and go and call the Fire Service or rescue the person? I obviously cannot answer this without knowing all the details but it's something that you will need to consider because it's unfair to expect your member of staff to do the right thing when it happens without having received instruction and guidance.
If you break the scenario down into individual components you may appreciate some of the problems eg Fight the fire - has your member of staff been trained, is there an extinguisher, do they know how to use it? Call the Fire Service - has this been done automatically, do your staff have mobile phones, do they know how to call the Fire Service? Rescue the Person - do they know how to lift safely, would they need assistance, are there any Evacuation Aids?
I think that by now you may be starting to understand the complexity of the situation and what you need to consider. Lets move to your last comment about advising staff to get out and stay out and leave rescue to the Fire Service. From a legal point of view that would be the safest action as you are protecting the best interests of your yourself and your staff - there is no law that indicates you have to fight fires or rescue people and that is clearly the role of the Fire Service but I think realisticlly that what is required is a reasonable approach and this amounts to being reasonable in the circumstances eg If your staff are already trained to fight fires then there is nothing wrong in them trying if its safe to do so, If your staff are trained in evacuation and lifting techniques - assist if safe to do so.
Remember you are not expecting staff to put their own safety at risk but just to be reasonable in the circumstances - I know that can be difficult when a situation arises but that's why the need for communication, training and guidance are so important.
Let me know if you want any additional help.
Regards Alan

Anne McAllister
Member - 124 posts

Thank you Alan . Most helpful.

Wesley Edwards
Member - 5 posts

We are a Managing Agent for a number of commercial properties, we are getting comflicting advice from our "profesionals" - in a multi occupancy building with common areas (particularly hallways / fire exits) we are responsible for the fire alarm maintenance and weekly testing (which we do) but we have a property that has no common areas (except the outside landscaping), each tenant block is self contained with it's own fire exit though they do have party walls - question - are we required to install a common fire alarm system with tests or can we leave the tenants to do their own thing as at present, merely requiring that they state in writing that they comply to regs within their own domain ?

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Wesley,
Are these single storey units with fire seperation between each unit? Alan

Wesley Edwards
Member - 5 posts

Alan, Yes they are, in general with less than 4 people in each unit.

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Wesley, This type of arrangement is not technicaly a "multi occupied building" but a number of buildings in "single occupation" and as such what you are doing is ok and they can each have their own method of raising the alarm of fire. The tenants can do very much their own thing but I would suggest that you get the occupiers to keep you updated of any alterations that could change the risk eg start to store fireworks, flammables, compressed gases etc. You will obviously also need to be aware of access arrangements in an emergency, arrangements for calling the Fire Service, assembly areas, waste storage arrangements and arson/security protection etc.
Hope that helps.
Alan

Dean Groombridge
Member - 3 posts

Hi,
Im after some advice on fire hose reels, The company i work have been discussing the removal or decommissioning of them throughout their estate for the past month or so. Althought they have not given the instruction to remove them yet i'm almost sure this will be the case.
The problem i have is that they are due for annual servicing, should i go ahead and request the sub-contractor to service them or can i use the reasonably practicable route not to service them. I have suggested to my client that until they make a firm decision we should remove all hose reel signage and secure the cupboards they are housed in, others not located in cupboards should have signage indicating not in use, would this suggestion still make us compliant ?

Thanks
Dean Groombridge

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Hi Dean,
Many companies are taking this option and a number of Fire Authorities are also concurring with this decision on the basis that it can put lives in danger. I personally feel that it's a bad decision to take purely on cost grounds as I can remember that during my fire service career I used them on more than one occasion very successfully. However, times and thinkings have changed and what you now have to look to is your Fire Risk Assessment and if this recommends the removal of the Fire Hose Reels, if it does, then I would take them out of use and remove them but not until this is confirmed. If they were installed on the advice of the Fire Authority or Insurer you may wish to check with them that they are happy about it. If they are in place and no one has made the decision they should be subject to routine maintenance.
I hope this helps.

Alan

Dean Groombridge
Member - 3 posts

Thanks Alan..!

Peter Reading
Member - 5 posts

Dean,
Hose reels can, in the right circumstances, be an essential part of the fire safety defence package for the preemies. The Office and Deputy Prime Minister always intended, as did the courts that fire fighting equipment is 'part of the means for maintaining the means of escape'. When the new Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order was being enacted along with its guidance this matter was debated at some length. The ODM now the Department for Communities and Local Government stated that fire extinguishers and hose reels were a part of the package to reduce the risk from to persons who were escaping from fire in other parts of the building.

With this concept, there must go the correct analysis, that the hose reels were the correct form of extinguishing media in the first place; they are not always suitable where there are many changes in direction or levels. Secondly, that staff are correctly trained to recognise the risks and how to use the equipment safely.

I can foresee a legal case developing where a small fire starts, in the presence of employees where, with the use of local first-aid fire fighting equipment, it is extinguished in its incipient stages. However, because of a ‘no fire extinguisher or hose reel policy’ the fire develops and spreads and some people elsewhere in the building become endangered or a casualty. Without knowing the precise circumstances and use of your building, I have broadly taken the view for many years that there are only limited and rare occasions where I would advocate a policy of no fire fighting equipment and people should all leave immediately. If you remove the hose reels and if called upon, are you prepared, with the protection, of a robust analysis to justify to the courts a ‘no fire fighting policy’ The removal on cost grounds will not be a defence, when for decades they have been accepted as a reasonable measure in the fire safety package for a building.

Peter Reading

Wesley Edwards
Member - 5 posts

Thanks Alan - nice concise response.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

Alan as a former firefighter I'm surprised that you try and make the case for the provision of hosereels on the basis that as a firefighter you used them. The equipment in the premises is for employee use and hosereels are frequently being replaced by Typer A extinguishers of the appropraite size for the area under consideration. If a fire cannot be extinguished by one or two portable extingyushers then generally the fire is too large and it should be left to the experts.
Dean I would certainly never advocate a no extinguisher policy. As you say the extinguishers can aid escape and elsewhere it has been argued that because persons in the building have not een trained in there use, remove the extinguishers. It should be train those in the building.

Dean Groombridge
Member - 3 posts

Iain,

The buildings we maintain do have portable fire extinguishers located throughout them. As far as i'm aware none of the client's staff have had the training in the use of the hose reels on site which is one of the reasons they are thinking of removing them, also they are considering the risks associated with legionela in hose reels.
Since posting this question though, my client has instructed us to service them for this year even though they will probably be decommissioned in the next couple of months.

Thanks for the advice given though, it was very helpful in a discussion i had with my client yesterday.

Mike Kane
Member - 20 posts

Hello all,

just a couple of points to consider in all of this discussion:

Article 13 of the RRO appears quite specific in the measures to be taken by the Responsible Person with regard to provision of necessary fire fighting equipment and the nomination and training of persons to use that equipment.

Article17 of the RRO requires the retention and maintenance of any fire fighting equipment provided in the workplace under any previous fire safety enactment which was repealed or revoked by the RRO.

Regards

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

Iain, I wasn't making the case for the provision of hose reels - I was stating the fact that I found them useful when attending fire incidents particularly in deep plan high rise buildings where it was not easy to get your own equipment to the fire quickly. I have also attended many fires where suitably trained staff have done an excellent job with the building fire hose reels. One that comes to mind was during the Fire Service Strike where hospital and RAF staff extinguished quite a major fire - obviously the experts were not there on this occasion.
I would also say the same for portable fire extinguishers as I have also used these on many occasions. The point that I was making was that if they are already in place it would be a pity to remove them on cost grounds, if they all wanted replacing then they may be a good reason to consider removal. I also stated that it was my own personal view and that times have changed.

Dean, As far as I am aware no one has caught legionnaires' disease from fire hose reels and if my memory serves me right Glasgow Royal Infirmary removed their hose reels because of the possible risk of the disease in the supply pipework that was in a very warm hospital basement - I think it started with some junior doctors spraying the hose reels on each other and someone jumping to this possible conclusion.
Alan

Peter Reading
Member - 5 posts

On the matter of legionnaire research shows that we have this in our water supply that we drink it now; in the gut it is not a problem, it is only when inhaled into the lungs its impact is serious. The reasarch that I have been undertaking with low pressure water mist indicates that it has to be down to 25-35 microns droplet for it to be inhaled in the air.

Legionnaire is not an issue in sprinklers, or hosereels. It does though have to be assesssed when specifying water mist systems.

Peter Reading