Responsibility for a new property

Angela Ferguson
Member - 12 posts

Any good property manager would ask for this. I'm confused myself as to why your line manager is questionning this.
If you are going to manage the Property then it is important that you do know how the heating and ventilation system operates in that building. Common sense is it not?

Martin Stock
Member - 13 posts

You are right, your line managers attitude is extremely strange. I think you need more than an overview of H & V systems, what about electrical, fire control, intruder alarm, computer network and water systems?
If you are going to be the first point of contact for all maintenance, then failure to understand and know the systems will make you ineffectual for information to a maintenance person. This will increase the amount of time and cost required for all jobs.
He is unnecessarily making your job more difficult, but whether you have any legal redress I am unsure. I think you should speak to him again and if the outcome is no different, either speak to his line manager or your HR department.

Colin England
Member - 55 posts

The Architects and the Project Managers should as normal good practice produce for use of the facilities managers a full copy of all the plans, electrical and all other installations etc amended to show "as built". The Contract normally requires that this be done and handed over at a set date after the building work was finished and before the "snagging" inspection/approval or hand over is done.

The documents should show the name of each of the products specified and actually used, how the systems were designed and who did the design work and how they actually work and all results of tests etc conducted.

Unless someone has this information available it is not possible to carry out proper maintanenace or deal with failures or emergencies etc. Or to obtain spares or go back to the right person for further advice/information or to make complaints or a claim on the Warrenties or Garantees.

All the information should be produced in a Book with wooden covers and a proper table should be provided so that the book can be studied. There are books provided specially for this purpose.

In a former existance I was a Chartered Surveyor and Chartered Engineer (with many other quaifications along the same lines) so I speak with some authority on these matters.

Colin England
Member - 55 posts

I would advise that you make nequiries and ascertain if there is such a book somewhere.

Andrew Standley
Member - 1 post

More importantly, as it’s a new structure, there exists a statutory requirement - (Construction (Design and Management) - Regulation to provide such information - it’s called the Health and Safety File which is produced during the construction phase and finalised upon project completion. This document is required to be handed over to the owner / occupier of any structure / building upon completion of works and should be updated as and when additional works are undertaken on the structure / building.

So, in a nutshell, you have the law on your side. Contact the Architect and remind them of their Legal Duty to supply the information as per the afore mentioned Legislation.

Stephen Smith
Member - 7 posts

Under the CDM Regs the Health and Safety File should actually be given to the Client (as defined by CDM), which might not be the owner of the building, therefore you may have to search a bit further than the Architect.

The Architect should be able to point you in the correct direction though.

Carl Manning
Member - 8 posts

An interesting point is raised by Stephen. My team act as the clinet's rep for all project work on site. The client being the company, who actually lease the site of the company's pension scheme (the landlord)

The CDM ACOP is available on the HSE site in pdf format, or hard copies can be purchased via the site or other means.

I would question Bob's Line Manager's grasp of the role Bob is conducting on their behalf. I would be very surprised if Bob's procurement arm had not included for suitable familiarisation training on all critical systems; making it a pre-condition of Practical Completion-a legal term see CDM ACOP:) The H&S File should be discharged to the client, there is still confusion over when. refer to CDM and there is no confusion!

Carl Manning
Member - 8 posts

Apologies for the poor spelling and grammar! A quick re-take on the original post leads to a question. Why ask the Architect for an over view of a system they have probably contracted out to a M&E specialist? You will get diluted information.

I would have thought as the property manager that Bob would have been identiified as a key stakeholder and therfore involved in the project progress meetings and design review meetings.

I would expect the H&S File to have a specific Maintenance Strategy section in addition to the other points raised above.

Good luck Bob, sounds like you need it!

Pasc Ruggiero, CFIOSH, FRSH
Member - 39 posts

The legal requirement have been overstated.

There have been lots of suggestions with which I agree, in order to ensure that the person responsible for operating the Building Services can do this safely and ensure that the installed (adequate?) environmental conditions are maintained. This includes training(demonstration). Unfortunately, the CDM Health and Safety File is not required to contain any operational information. I can hear the cry: But an O&M manual is always included in the H&S File! This is because some CDM Co-ordinators and contractors do not know what should be included and is often missing. However, CDMR07 requires the file to contain information to ensure that the services etc are maintained safely.

Designers and installers have responsibilities to provide adequate information for the safe use and maintenance of “articles” etc under section 6, HSWA74. But the equipment could be safe to use and not be adequately rated or adjusted to provide the required conditions.

The best way to ensure that the O&M information and training is provided (to the required standard) is to spell this out in detail in the Design Team brief and any subsequent FM agreement. Similarly, the environmental conditions required should be defined in detail.

I also wouldn’t bother the Architect but get hold of the M&E contractor(s). I'd also advise Bob’s manager to get interested in another career!

Stephen Smith
Member - 7 posts

The H&S File gives the H&S aspects of maintaining/operating the building, it does not need to give information on the day to day operation of systems. In fact the ACOP encourages you to leave it out so as not to make an overly large document that no-one would ever look at.

Therefore Bob, I believe that you are correct that an element of training to carry out your duties safely and correctly is essential. I cannot see why your manager would think otherwise.

Just a point though, it would be a matter of courtesy to contact the Architect/main contractor before the M&E contractors as in all probabilities the M&E was working under contract to them and not the client. It may avoid some contractual difficulties later on.

David Trigger
Member - 6 posts

The architect is normally the co--ordinator of the project and as such the central point from which to obtain the data. The Planning Co-ordinator ("Planning Supervisor" under the previous version of CDM) should ensure the production of an adequate H +S File - usually the contract will require this to be done by the "Principal Contractor".

David Trigger (Chartered Architect)

Pasc Ruggiero, CFIOSH, FRSH
Member - 39 posts

Stephen,

The CDM Regulations 2007 apply only to “construction work” which is defined in R2(1)b. This includes the “maintenance …. of mechanical, electrical ……services…….fixed within or to a structure”. The Regulations do not use the term “building” (in the sense of a completed “structure”).

CDMR07 does not refer to the “operation” of the structure, services, etc. If you disagree, could you please refer to the regulation(s).

Any of the Design Team members can act as DT Leader and Contract Administrator. So, if we want to ensure that formal lines of communication are correct, the client should be approached. If the Client (CDM) has not made available the H&S File, then he is in breach of the Regulations. And, if he is disinterested - as he seems to be - Bob will have no option but to directly approach the contractor.

The only time I have come across a contract between a building contractor and an Architect is in a ‘Design & Build’ arrangement and then the contractor takes the lead! i.e. the client’s contract is with the builder and the Architect is a sub contractor. In any event, the Main Contractors contract is directly with the client/”employer”.

David,

The Planning Supervisor has actually been replaced by the “CDM Co-ordinator” and the best arrangement is for this role to be undertaken by an independent person. The Regulations do not prohibit any of the DT members from also undertaking CDM-C duties. However, this person would e.g. end up checking himself that he has discharged his Designer (CDM) responsibilities. He is hardly likely to criticise himself! This can be made to work where a different individual within the same organisation undertakes the separate roles. However, a ‘Chinese wall’ should exist between the two individuals in order to demonstrate independence.

The contract cannot pass the responsibility from the CDM-C to the Principal Contractor, to provide an adequate H&S File.

Pasc Ruggiero - Chartered Building Services Engineer; and Chartered Safety and Health Practitioner.

David Trigger
Member - 6 posts

Yes I know.... and I never undertake the dual role of architect and CDM Co-ordinator for the reasons you give

Bob Valentine
Member - 5 posts

Thank you for everyone who has contributed to the thread to date.

The property in question is a school, with a new swimming pool, H&V plant, sprinkler system and solar recovery system.

The O&M manuals have been left on site, and I have only started to work through the first manual, covering the fire sprinkler system and found that there are defects in the system as built. I have already raised this is an issue directly with the project architect.

With such a complex and integrated property, I could go through all the O&M manauls for each piece of plant and equipment, however with some expert knowledge, I might not fully comprehend how all the systems are integrated. As an example of this, just after the property was occupied, the swimming pool plant room was flooded. A H&V clerk of works was dispatched to the property by persons unknown, who proceeded to shut down all the pumps. The result of which the safety valves on the solar recovery system activated after about an hour, releasing steam from the roof. The school staff reacted, and called the fire service thinking the building was on fire.

I have already issued an order to the architect for training, which would include the ability of H&V consultants/contractors to recover their costs for my training, however the architect has brought the request to the attention of my line manager.

My concern comes not from CDM but from my own personal liability.
The Management of Health and Safety Work Regulations 1999.
Section 13 states:
13. - (1) Every employer shall, in entrusting tasks to his employees, take into account
their capabilities as regards health and safety.
(2) Every employer shall ensure that his employees are provided with adequate health
and safety training -
(a) on their being recruited into the employer's undertaking; and
(b) on their being exposed to new or increased risks because of -
(i) their being transferred or given a change of responsibilities within the
employer's undertaking,
(ii) the introduction of new work equipment into or a change respecting work
equipment already in use within the employer's undertaking,
(iii) the introduction of new technology into the employer's undertaking, or
(iv) the introduction of a new system of work into or a change respecting a
system of work already in use within the employer's undertaking.
(3) The training referred to in paragraph (2) shall -
(a) be repeated periodically where appropriate;
(b) be adapted to take account of any new or changed risks to the health and safety
of the employees concerned; and
(c) take place during working hours.

My interpretation of this is, should my employer not afford me training, and I take a decision that results damaged to the property and plant, or in injury or death to any occupant, I cannot be disciplined by my employer or held accountable in any subsequent criminal or civil law proceedings.

Colin England
Member - 55 posts

Are you a member of a Union? OR do you have personal legal liability insurance?

David Trigger
Member - 6 posts

There should have been an operational hand-over when all plant etc should have been explained, ideally to at least two persons responsible for the day to day operation of the building/installation. The O+M manuals are not a substitute for this.

Bob Valentine
Member - 5 posts

I am a member of Unison

Stephen Smith
Member - 7 posts

I agree with David Trigger. Whether you need a formal training course is up for discussion, but at the very least you should have detailed instruction in how to use the equipment day to day, otherwise how can you do your job? Are you supposed to guess and hope all is OK?

Even if you ignore the safety side, how are you to know the most efficient/economical way to operate the plant. Your management may be more receptive if you start discussing in this way - money talks. If the school/pool closes for any reason they will be an effect on revenue or publicity.

Does your School/local authority have a central Health and Safety section that could advise?

John Robertson
Member - 7 posts

Unison help could be backed-up with legal insurance.
Some brokers can get you legal insurance on its own, rather than as an add-on.

Wish I could help more with your need for clarity. It must be agonising to work-out whether your line manager is deliberately trying to get you to do something that looks like a mistake, or whether the organisation just likes having lots of hierachy and procedures but doesn't like doing anything or being practical. The two seem to overlap in some organisations.

Is your line manager deliberately hiding manuals and info, or does the motive seem to be saving expense?

Pasc Ruggiero, CFIOSH, FRSH
Member - 39 posts

Bob,
It is not possible (and probably illegal) to secure insurance to protect a person from criminal prosecutions eg fines. However, insurance to cover legal expenses to defend yourself are available. Profesional Indemnity (errors and omisions) insurance is taken out by (wise!) consultants. Generally, employees do not require insurances because employers are vicariously liable for their actions. This will depend on the circumstances and would not apply e.g. if a person set a trap to injure another. Even this would be subject to exceptions e.g. if the employee was known to have a history of horseplay.

All of the Regulations made under the HSWA74 place responsibilities on the EMPLOYER to provide training. Section 2(2) of the Act is the starting point.

You should formally advise your employer e.g. c.c. to your Personnel Officer that you require training (if you believe this to be the case). However, your employer cannot “rely” on this request. Training should be provided to you free of charge.

Martin Stock
Member - 13 posts

Bob,
Forget about insurance! As has been stated previously your employer has vicarious liability for your actions. Remember, they can delegate the management but not the responsibility for H & S.

As Pasc has said; formally write to your employer, which as you work in a school the same as me, is the Chair of the School Govenors. Send copy to the Head of Human Rescources, LA Corporate Health & Safety and the Branch Secretary of your union. State your case clearly, using the HSWA74, that you require training. Use the examples of the previous mishaps that you have described as reasons pointing out the cost implications.

If still nothing happens and your worried about your liability, ring the HSE for advise, I'm sure they would be happy to help.

Bob Valentine
Member - 5 posts

Ladies and Gentlemen, again thank you for all your support and guidance.
If I may I would like to respond to the last 4 posts:

Stephen, I am an architect by profession however moved into property maintenance and management 13 years ago. I think that the crunch will come during the next week, as for this same building, I have carried out a risk assessment on a loading bay, with recommended control measures which my line manager is required to approve. If he fails to do so I will be taking the matter to the Senior H&S officer within the Council.
As for money talks-last thursday morning the facility staff reported a leak in the heating system of the games hall. As instructed by my line manager, I immeditaly passed it the the heating engineer. He in turn did not visit the site, but issued an order to a contractor charging my depertment £50 or his efforts. The order that went out from his department was not for a heating engineer, but for a plumber who turned up on site on Monday and cleaned the roof £120. On Tuesday the facility staff went and complained to my line manager. Yesterday I had to take control of the situation as the origional request from the facility staff did not identify that the leaking heating pipe was 8 metres abov the FFL and directly above the entrance door of the hall and plant room. Hence I had to call in the correct contractor and work out a safe system of work which will now result in the work being carried out next week with the possible resulting damage to the games hall floor. So £170 later the problem is still not resolved!

John, my line manager is a quantity surveyor by profession. I do not beleive that he is trying to deliberatly entrap me, as he is well aware that given my professional background I record everything in detail. I think is more a case of ignorance, and trying to please everyone but pleasing no one. As for the manuals, I have access to them all, however I have only started to check one manual, the automatic sprinkler system, and already have found that the manual is incomplete and installation does not comply with with the BS and will require various items to be altered to ensure compliance. I am treating this as a latent defect.
I brought in the Council H&S officer in over the design of the pool plant room after the flooding, and a this has resulted in an HSE enforcement notice being issued on the pool plant room and a further £40,000 of remedial works being carried out. All this is very embarrising for the project architect, who is also a Council employeee, and hence this is why I think the project architect has tried to block my training/overview of the rest of the plant.

Pasc, I did think of writing to my Director, or even the Chief Exec, of the Council, however as our corporate H&S section are part of the HR department, I think if I alert them of my situation, they will be more "in tune" with the implications of my line managers decision.

Martin, I look after 25 schools ranging from Senior Secondary to nursery, all local authority under the Director of Education. My line manager has indicated this week that he met with the head Teacher of this school in question, and the Head Teacher has reported that I am not being co-operative. Again my line manager has supported this, so I beleive its just a case of plain ignorance on the part of my line manager of the legal requirements. I have however, held a meeting in the school this week with the facility staff, and the minutes of the meeting will make it clear to the Head Teacher, that my apparent non co-operation is through lack of training, and no other reason.

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this ongoing comedy of errors.

Stephen Smith
Member - 7 posts

It looks like it is time to get everyone together in a room for a couple of hours and talk? (including Corporate H&S perhaps or some other mediator).

Do you have any colleagues in similar posts that you could get together with?

It seems that everyone is looking after each other instead of pulling together.

Martin Stock
Member - 13 posts

Bob,
You have my sympathy! I don't think you have any worries defending yourself on the H & S front. It looks like you are suffering the usual local authority ignorance and arrogance syndrome. Lack of support from a line manager can be quite demoralising so hang in there and if you do need support I suggest you lean on your union.

I don't think there is anything more I can add that you don't already know.

So keep up the good fight and best of luck. Martin.

David Trigger
Member - 6 posts

Just more sympathy from me too. (Not that it will help much).

What a pity that the attitute that "Information is power and therefore to be guarded" seems so often to thrive in large organisations? Perhaps it's just another manifestation of trying to protect one's job!

Good luck and stick to your professional stance.