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Jenny Bogg
Member - 8 posts
I read that ASDA will be fining those parked in mother & child spaces without 'cause' a fee of £60.
Is this legal in a supermaket car park, or a private car park?
As I understood it, mother & child spaces are 'courtesy' spaces that are wider than the norm and closer to the store for convenience - there is no law as such attached to their use as is there is for disabled bays.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
My understanding is that ASDA can do what they like on their own land. There is a distinct difference between public carparks and private carparks and on road parking and off road parking. Blue Badge Legislation is only valid to on road parking, so any rules that are implemented by Councils or shopowners in their private carparks is compleatly up to them.
As a Blue Badge holder however I can tell you that the reason that ASDA have done this is to stop the selfish and unhelpful able bodied driver who thoughtlessly park in Disabled Bays and in Mother and Child bays forcing either disabled people to return home because they have no other alternative or mothers to struggle with their heavy prams and children from distant parking bays.
There is always a good reason for them doing something like that its not because they just woke up one day and thought they would just start implementing that policy and annoying people. It was after a long hard battle from people like Mobilise and the Baywatch campaign http://www.baywatchcampaign.co.uk
I hope now more people will become aware of the need to leave Disabled Bays for what they are suppossed to be for everywhere......Disabled people!
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les potter
Member - 23 posts
i think enforcing the fine may have some difficuluties for example it could be argued that a 44 year old man taking his mother aged 68 to the shop can park there as it ( technically ) is still mother and child !!!!
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Jenny Bogg
Member - 8 posts
Ha! Great point Les - I hadnt thought of that - it's all about interpretation I guess!
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
Possibly, however I think the sign of a person obviously depicting a mother pushing a pram may prove a bit of a problem in that scenario!!
ASDA and all the stores that will follow suit with these fines will have to put up clear signs if they want their policies to work, be successful and acheive the deterrent they require - I think this is more about communication then interpretation.
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Les Lane
Member - 49 posts
Communication and definition are key to this. Under the terms of the DDA any one who has been asessed as having a special educational need for at least 12 months is considered as disabled. This may be only a low level of need in needing help with readinf etc. Does this mean they can park later in life as a disabled person even though this does not impair their mobility.
I would not abuse such parking spaces but it does seem that in many places these provisions are disproportinate to the number of spaces available to the general user.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
As a shopping centre manager with an Asda store we would fully welcome penalties being issued for mis-use of parking bays. To often we see people abusing the system and getting away with it and the more they get away with it the more they do it. Les Potters definition of a 44 yr old child is absurd and a very poor example, would a 44yr old person be classed as a 'young person', I doubt very much!!!! Mother and child bays should be reserved for those mothers who need the space in order to get baby/child out of their child seat and into a pram. I also think disabled bays should be reserved for those with poor mobility and who need to be close to the main entrances. To often I have seen people parking their BMW's, displaying a blue badge and then running off to get whatever, this to me is mis-use and deny's the space for someone with poor mobility.
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Steve Ballantyne
Member - 3 posts
Oh please - People!
A child is under 18; the bays are sensibly intended for parents with babes-in-arms & toddlers; it's not just Mothers who go to the supermarket with their children - Dads do too!
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Edward Bulfin
Member - 3 posts
i agree to the comments by Tony Page, but would like to see his interpretation of someone who needs a space near the door. Would this be one with no legs, an arm missing, a severe mental problem or some other highly visible difficulty. I have a severe clotting disorder, that causews severe fatigue, joint, muscle and tendon pain. Added to this there is minor multi-organ damage and a small amount of brain damage. All this make it ideal for me to walk as short a distance as possible, yet to look at me I seem to be 100% fit anmd in good health. Do I have to resort to a wheelchair to 'prove' to people,like Tony, that I am dsabled.
Regards
Eddie Bulfin
http://apls.tk
"Well; I'm stumped! We'll have to wait for the autopsy"
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
Eddie, here at my centre we believe in equality for all. The spaces near to the entrance are for those with mobility difficulties, whether they have to rely on a wheelchair or not. I totally agree with you with regards to perception, do I ask a person who looks healthy to prove that they are disabled, no I certainly wouldn't. Do those people taking the disabled bays, who clearly haven't got mobility difficulties, have a conscience or even care that they are denying the use of that space for someone, like yourself, who needs that space. Trust me, even blue badge holders question me with regrads to the validity of some bluebadge holders.
Regards
Tony
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
Eddie and Tony your comments just prove that it is time that the "Blue Badge" is designed so that when it is given to a person, the evaluation is robust enough to ensure that the person does indeed genuinly fall within a well defined criteria which is carried out for EVERYONE from every council all over the country, so it is a level playing field and so that the general public start to have some faith and respect in the system. Only then will people stop giving Blue Badge holders a second look and start turning themselves on one another.
I am personally sick to death of having to justify myself or my badge to anyone because I know what I had to do to get it and what I suffer everyday to warrent keeping it. However to look at me I dont look any different to anyone else. Like Eddie demonstrates it is unfortunate that the public are not better educated about unseen disabilities and perhaps this too needs to be addressed with some sort of a campaign.
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Jenny Bogg
Member - 8 posts
Whilst it's nice to read a heated debate about blue badges - my original question was concerning the legalities of issuing fines for those parking in mother and child bays - a totally diffeent issue from disabled/blue badge holders bays.
Can someone define the difference between a public and private carpark when it comes to supermarkets - or indeed when you have to pay to use a supermarket car park?
My car park at work is a private car park? Does this mean that my interpretation of the car parking regulations could be diffeent to that of a public car park? Surely the law is the law?
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Alan Love
Member - 1 post
A mate of mine got fined £40 by ASDA for parking in a disabled place. He had just had a knee operation and needed room to swing his legs out of his automatic car to get out of it. He was genuinely disabled, albeit only temporarily, but no sympathy for him!
ASDA, like some other supermarkets, said they contract out the management of their car parks to a private contractor and the store manager could do nothing about it.
Reality check! This is a shop, nothing more than a place that wants you to spend your money with them. The parent and child parking is not out of empathy with the family, it is simply making it easier for the biggest spenders ie families with small children, to get in the shop and start spending!
They could after all place the parent parking at the far corner of the car park and give them a safe walkway, and some exercise, to the store. But elderly people and the infirm who do not have a Blue Badge have to do the walking!
My wife and me and our three children have walked up and down our high street with a pushchair full of shopping and used the bus when my family were growing up. Not necesarrily easy but certainly could be done. Nowdays it is too much trouble for families to walk more than 10 metres!
Now to the question! ASDA can do what they like with their car park. What can you do if you get fined?
1. Tell them to **ss off!
2. Ask to see the manager. Usually a futile gesture as they are far too important to talk to a customer. You will get fobbed off with a go-between.
3. Force the private contractor to take you to court, and ensure you get lots of publicity that is bad for the supermarket. You have to be brave to do that and gamble it won't go all the way.
4. Go into the shop and fill your trolly with shopping and process it through the check-out and then refuse to pay unless they rip up the parking ticket. They, ASDA, say they get no revenue from the ticket, it goes to the contractor. They would probably prefer you to pay them for £120 worth of shopping than £40 to the contractor.
5. Refuse to shop with them any more and let them know it!
My wife is a nurse. She has to pay to park at her place of work, local hospital! She works nights When the carpark is mostly empty, but her employer still insists she pays to park, £300 per year!
Who owns the land makes the rules! Just make yourself aware of the rules before you park and then decide!
Will teachers be charged for parking on school playgrounds? The Government has already declared it would allow Local Authorities to introduce a parking tax for all workplace parking places.
The car is an easy target and seen by Government as something of a cash cow!
Well that's my contribution for you.
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James Fairchild
Member - 254 posts
Alan - take a look at www.pepipoo.com and also www.thegreatparkingticketswindle.co.uk
This is NOT a fine, you do NOT have to pay it, and there is very little that the issuing company can do to make you do so.
Also (note to Asda) blue badges have no significance on private land. If anything, it would be the common law definition of "disabled" that would apply not the blue badge criteria.
Jenny,
Parking in a private car park (i.e. any car park not controlled by the local council - whether a workplace, supermarket, etc) is a minefield, and in general any penalties must be based on the existance of a contract (take a look at those links).
Note that my comments do not extend to tickets issued by the police or the local council.
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User 101
Member - 5 posts
I think it's discrimination. I can understand parking for the handicapped, as nobody decides to be handicapped by choice. It happens, and we should do what we can to accomodate (just don't go overboard and inconvenience a million others to help one).
But a mother with child, or even someone pregnant? Hey, you chose to get pregnant, and here are some of the hardships of dealing with that. You get treated equally and park where the rest of the customers park. Can't walk, having trouble, kids running rampant? Think about it before you have another kid, or even a first one, for that matter.
I'll post on this on my blog at www.mybeefonline.com
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David Price
Member - 80 posts
Hello user 101, are you to embarrassed to share your name, and as for your blog, well, blog off.
Your contribution is just ranting from someone who clearly has never had kids, and if your parents hadn't had you then you wouldn't be here would you, I suggest you try your comments on your Mother.
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Edward Bulfin
Member - 3 posts
Hi all, this debate is obviously one that has hit a nerve with many motorists and shoppers alike. My point on the legality of the mother and toddler bays is that the 'legality' should not be the main topic. The topic should be on how those bays are planned, positioned and used. The whole idea of wider spaces for mothers with small children is to facilitate the ease of transit from car to pushchair or pram. Most parents using the bays in my local shopping areas tend to get the push chair out of the boot, leaving it in a position that is in the danger zone in any car park, then get the child out of the seat to run round to their push chair which is still at the rear of the car in a danger zone. This could be easily done in a 'normal' bay, so why the extra wide spaces?
It is a question of planning the space to make it wider and longer to bring that rear danger zone into the marked area, or making all Mother and Toddler spaces parrallel parking only areas with the space to transfer the child from the side of the vehicle directly into a pedestrian only portion of the car park.
Are fines legal, the answer has to ne no, but are they morally acceptable? That is a whole different question and the answert has to be yes, if you park there and put a childs life in danger, then you have to be held accountable. It is a private car parking area, so they could go one step further and ban your vehicle from ever entering the whole area again, one small customer lost but great publicity for them on the child safety issue.
Regards
Eddie
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Edward Bulfin
Member - 3 posts
Sorry about the spelling mistakes, my fingers still hit the wrong buttons following the last stroke (the reason fo my comments on disability parking).
Regards
Eddie
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James Fairchild
Member - 254 posts
Edward - a "fine" from a private company can never be morally acceptable, as only a statutory body can issue a "fine". This is merely a private parking invoice.
Is it morally wrong to park in a disabled/parent space - probably, but the law isn't concerned with morals.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
User 101, thanks for your comments, they have been noted and duly thrown straight into the bin as you clearly have no concept on what you are talking about.
Getting back to the issue of fines for people parking in parent & child spaces. As previously mentioned, I manage a shopping centre which has a supermarket as one of my tenants. I manage the car park, not the supermarket. First things first, this is a private car park used by the public so we can, in essence, refuse entry. Car parks have to, by law, display terms and conditions for the use of the car park. Part of them T&C's could quite easily state that fines will be issued for anyone blatently parking in spaces not designed or allocated for them. So if I issued a fine and the receipient decided not to pay what are my options. I could chose to ignore it and not do anything or I could spend a lot of time, energy and money in taking that person to court. The latter i'm afraid is a no goer.
We could take the car details and refuse entry if that person tried to come again but with 3 entrances on to our car park this option is not feasible.
You see there is a huge amount of issues with regards to parking, should it be free? staff should be allowed to park free, should bluebadge holders have to pay, how old does the child have to be before the parent stops using the parent/child bay. The debate will roll on and on. It will always be a contentious issue and until people start respecting one another then I'm afraid people will abuse anything and they won't give a stuff about anyone.
You only have to look at the news to see whats happening.
Regards
Tony
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
Tony you are absolutely right I am afraid. I say afraid because we ALL know what we should be doing, we ALL know we should have some respect for the disabled, pregnant ladies, mothers with small babies or struggling with small children and heavy shopping or any other vulnerable or hurting person and we All know that if a notice has been put up in a car park it has usually been done with good reason (private car park or council).
Just like the DDA HAD to be brought in to force employers and others to respect people’s rights, unfortunately there are always those that need to be reminded that there are those that are less well off and more vulnerable than others. Until ALL of us stop and think before we do things, say things and just generally think about other people more, than this world is just going to become a selfish, bureaucratic minefield where we will all be just more miserable people.
Life is too dam short.
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Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts
How about making all parking spaces of a reasonable width rather than trying to cram as many in as possible. This would facilitate all users and hopefully stop those careless idiots who damage cars with doors, trollies, pushchairs etc and then leave as if nothing had happened.
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sheena farenden
Member - 59 posts
Hi as both a disabled person and a mother I feel that you are all missing the point.
Many disabled people do not have mobility issues and therefore are not issued a Blue Badge andf these spaces are aimed at people with mobility problems. I would suggest that anyone with a temporary mobility issue contact their local store prior to visiting and ask if they can be accomodated for a few weeks.
Blue Badge Holders - it is not always a visible disability heart problems, MS, cancer etc.
However someone else parking in these spaces causes a major problem i.e. can they even get out of the car if trying to park in a normal space.
Mother and toddler spaces I see no need for these to be close to the store.I thought the reasoning behind these was bigger spaces to allow the door to open enough to get a child out of the car seat which I agree are necessary. However these can be anywhere in the carpark.
as often they remove necessary disabled spaces to accomodate these.
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sheena farenden
Member - 59 posts
Sorry part of my post disappeared. i said that the other problem is that stores seem to put them at front of store no idea why?
Also anyone who parks in a car park anywhere if there are rules abide by them or pay. The supermarket owns the land and can decide.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
As I said, 'car parking will always be a contentious issue'. Not everyone can be pleased. Disbaled bays are located near to the store because of mobility difficulties with some disabled patrons. Not all mother and toddler bays are located near to the stores and we would certainly never consider re-allocating a disabled bay for a mother toddler bay. I take the point that mother and toddler bays may not need to be located adjacent the entrance, however, they are so for safety reasons and that is so they can get the pushchair straight on to a footpath. We also have to take into account that not all mothers or fathers have only one toddler. Can you imagine how it must be, as I have quite often seen, for a parent with a new born, plus a couple of other very young offspring, trying to get them from the car park to the store safely. We know how distracting, inquisitive and adventurous kids can be, parents nowadays have to have eyes in the back of their heads.
We have a common law duty to ensure that everyone is safe whilst visiting and if that means we have to inconvenience some people by making them walk a few extra yards so we can protect the safety of the most vulnerable, then so be it.
I just hope that one day society will become a much less selfish society. Surely a small amount of inconvinience is much more tolerable than a lifetime of inconvinience.
Tony
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James Duncan
Member - 6 posts
First of I have no problems with disabled bays, not being disabled myself I hope I never have to use them. However I have just returned from a shopping centre in Kent where I found a complete car parking level set aside for mums and kids. I found that very annoying. Again I have no problems with some bays, but not over 50. By the way I have had children.
Jim Duncan
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James Fairchild
Member - 254 posts
Tony, in your 4th July post, you state that you can "fine" people. This is incorrect, you cannot 'fine' anyone, because you are not a public body.
If there is a contract (and in parking, it is a big if) you can issue an invoice for breech of that contract. You could also look at the tort of trespass.
However, what you need to realise, and what Tesco Asda etc need to realise, is that these "park one minute longer than the two hours and pay £75" invoices they are issuing (through an intermediary) are penalties, and any solicitor will tell you that a penalty is unlawful (case law dates back to 1915, Dunlop v New Motor Co).
I do, of course, sympathise with your issue, however until we as a country stop being beholden to the god of automobile, it is a problem which will remain.
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
James, I wonder if you have stopped to think why a shopping centre would put its entire mother and child bays on one floor because I can assure you it is not just to annoy you and other people by taking up a whole floor.
I think its a very sensible idea because it does not take up bays on other floors, it concentrates them all on one level so mothers//families know where to go instead of wandering round looking for bays and no doubt they have linked that floor to lifts and walkways to make it easier for pushchairs and possibly fire escapes.
Personally I would like to invite all non disabled people to spend time in a wheelchair or on crutches and try to get about for a day and then see how you would feel when somebody who did not need it, took up a disabled bay so that you could not use it and had to return home mission unaccomplished. My husband and I also have a much better appreciation of what it is like to get young children and baby’s safely in and out of a car after a stint of babysitting recently. Again until you have experienced these issues first hand, its very easy not to appreciate the full reason why these bays are there in the first place.
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janet burton
Member - 41 posts
Lots of debate!
I can give a good example of a Supermarket attempting to apply this 'fine'. I objected strongly. I spoke to the manager. They said it was not them, it was a private company. I said then it is not their car park, and demanded to see the manager of the car park. They could not give me him. I told them to therefore take the fine and explain the circumstances - ie an elderly disabled gentleman (my father-in-law, following a foot operation) with no blue badge. As I understood it, the blue badge disabled parking spaces were legally enforcable, which is why I did not use one. We used a parent and child parking space, he got out of the car and hobbled to the seat outside the supermarket.
Therefore anyone who saw us arriving, which they had to, to see there was no child in the car, saw his walking problem. I did the shopping and then helped him back to the car, to find the ticket on it. I said if that was the kind of people they sub-contracted the carpark out to, they should examine their priorities, because it would lose them customers. I never heard from them again, and also never done my weekly shop there again - so they have lost out, if only in a small way.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
Hi James F
Thank you for your very worthwhile comments and the caselaw, very interesting.
Janet I sympathise with you but can understand why such action was taken against you. No doubt another parent had seen you parking there and informed the supermarket or whoever, and it was them who took the action. It would be the same if a non-disabled person parked in a disabled bay because there was no parent/toddler bay. I'm fairly sure the any bluebadge holder would also inform.
As I've previously said, we live in a selfish society.
And I must add that a supermarket can stop tickets being issued. A friend of mine once recieved a ticket at a supermarket, £50. What he did, when the supermarket refused to do anything, was go back into the store, load a trolley up and take it through the checkout. His bill came to over £100. He refused to pay unless they did something about the ticket. The supermarket gave in.
Listen guys, I truely wish that car parking was straight forward and simple. It's not and thats because we have people making it difficult for us, landlords, the goverment, local authority and yes the general public.
Tony
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David Price
Member - 80 posts
I feel that there is a genuine need for both Accessable Spaces and Mother and Baby spaces, however I am sure that I am not alone when you are sitting in your car having driven around the carpark for 20 minutes trying to find a space.
And you see a Range Rover pull into a Accessable parking bay, and out pops the fittest person youv'e ever seen in a track suit, and the countless people who park in the mother and baby bays, who have remembered to do their shopping but have left their baby at home?
I feel that there is no need to put the Acessable bays outside the supermarkets front door as most disabled drivers have to prove that they cannot walk beyond a certain distance, but as far as i'm aware that distance is further than the 20ft the spaces are from the door.
Why are disabled prople happy to not be seperated from the abled body people, when it suits them, and at other times it's I'm disabled wheres my parking space? I feel that all parking spaces should be unmarked for anyone to use, as we have all seen the 20 accessable spaces right outside the front door sitting empty, whilst us abled body drivers run around looking for somewhere to park.
If the supermarkets want to treat everyone equally then don't mark any spaces it will work a lot better, and save them money on having to employ a contractor to monitor it. it's the same as when the traffic lights are not working, why is it that the traffice always seems to flow a lot better? and parking is no different take away the markings and a lot of the problems will disapear overnight.
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janet burton
Member - 41 posts
David, I disagree. I want both disabled and parent & child spaces close to entrances because I see why both disabled people and parents of small children need them there.
What I disagreed with in my father-in-law's case was the draconian use of the ticketing procedure despite the person (either the one complaining or the one ticketing, it makes no difference) being able to see there was a severe mobility problem, and therefore seeing why we parked there. I would also suggest anyone ticketing a car on a complaint rather than their own eyes in such a case would be wrong - they would not know why the complaint was made, or even if it was right. They could wait and ticket the person if they found the complaint accurate, but not the car in their absence.
I would rather see spaces empty on occasion than see no special spaces - but it is rare where I live that more than one or two is empty. I often see queues at one local store waiting for disabled spaces.
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Claire Fuller
Member - 35 posts
Just a reminder: the Workplace Law Network forums are designed as a discussion area for employers and managers to exchange ideas and information about the workplace, or to ask and answer questions posed by other members of the Workplace Law Network.
Please don't abuse the forums by asking questions about personal issues or overly discussing issues not relevant to workplace.
Thanks in advance for your co-operation.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
Totally agree Claire but I do feel that this is a relevant subject, especially for me as it gives me an insight to how people feel about car parks and then maybe one day I can arrange to have mine set out in such a way that pleases all and is safe for people to negotiate.
David, as for your comments, I'm so glsd you don't work for me, it would cost me a fortune sending you on diversity courses.
I think this thread had probably drawn to a conclusion now
Regards
Tony
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
Thank You Tony for putting your comments about David so eloquently!! I don’t think I would have been so polite.
David I genuinely hope that you or anyone in your family or employ never ever have the need for any of these bays.
The thread may have come to an end but perhaps you all may want to bear in mind one final point of just why bays have been put there in the first place.
To look at me you would not think I was any different than anyone else; however I have a condition that causes severe pain - anywhere in my body and I never know where or when it’s going to be. Sometimes the smallest steps can be excruciating but I try to carry on doing things to the best of my ability. Without the confidence of knowing that there is a disabled bay I would not venture out to places but sometimes I have to come home again if all the bays have been taken because I simply cannot cope with a longer walk. David just because disabled people are only supposed to be able to walk a certain distance does not mean it is all black and white, some days I may be able to do something and on others hardly anything at all and I am sure this is the same for many others.
I am not in the habit of sharing my personal details on line but hope in doing so you will have a better understanding and tolerance of disability bays at least. I appreciate you are entitled to your point of view but I hope it will now be an educated one at the very least.
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Rosemary King
Member - 10 posts
I have been advised by the Police that it is a civil matter but that it is effectively an undiclosed payment contract and it would not be supported in court. Go figure.
In my opinion, a better more equal and lasting solution would be for Supermarkets to make all the parking spaces wider. Most people park n the Mother & Toddler spaces because they are sick of people banging their car doors indiscriminately into other parked cars....just a thought.
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Kuang Lim
Member - 34 posts
If all spaces are as wide as disabled's, then there should be no more discrimination issue. First come first serve.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
And then you take away about 1/5th of parking spaces and therefore end up with some customers unable to park and getting frustrated.
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Rosemary King
Member - 10 posts
The alternative then, if the shop owners wont increase width, is to vote with your tyres and move to a shop where the spaces are wider. Our local Waitrose for example?
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Kuang Lim
Member - 34 posts
Should be included as part of the Planning Consent for new buildings. In this way, there would be no shortage of spaces.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
And the argument goes on and on and on.
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Kevin Brown
Member - 88 posts
If you can vote with your tyres then by all means do so, (unless of course other considerations weigh in against Waitrose). It's obviously a major consideration with all retailers competing for our custom. Loss leaders on the shelf v easy access car parking outside the store.
I don't think making every space wheelchair-accessible is reasonable, maybe increasing the proportion of disability parking spaces is. (I don't like the term disabled parking, nor for that matter disabled toilet, I get a mental image of a plumber, bal valve in hand, when I hear the latter. You can truly disable parking by fencing it off).
Perhaps an enlightened retailer intent on attracting custom will come up a techy solution that specific parking groups could subscribe to , or a means of dissuading improper use, such as wiping offenders' Clubcards or Nectar points.
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Tim Blanchard
Member - 7 posts
As a designer of Car Parks and Safety Consultant, I've been watching this blog with interest. Recently, I submitted a design for a multi-storey car park on a very tight site. Car park design is normally made with reference, as a minimum, to BS8800:2001 and the Institute of Structural Engineers publication - Design Recommendations for Multi-storey and Underground Car Parks. The recommended bay width and length is 2.4m x 4.8m to suit a "standard car". Personally, I feel this is too tight and encourage the use of bays 2.5m x 5.0m to accomodate the increased dimensions of modern cars.
Noting the additional 1.2m safety zone for boot access required to the "special needs" bays and the 1.2m access zone between adjacent "special needs" bays my design was for a 25 storey split level storey carpark and was considered by the Architect as a good design and user friendly. The design was submiited in accordance with the specification to providea carpark with 450 spaces including 30 "special needs" parking bays.
However, the the estimators did not agree. It was over budget and I was instructed to "loose" two levels from each side, reducing the building height to 21 storeys.
This necessitated a total redesign, the 2.5m x 5.0m bays had to go and were replaced with the minimum 2.4m x 4.8m bays, headroom restrictions were introduced to upper floor levels and the design accepted at the revised building height.
This is an example of how design suffers at the stroke of an accountants pen. The effect of designing to minimum dimensions with little consideration to the change in vehicle characteristics is an error frequently made and we the and we then all suffer as a result. Parking a 1960's Austin Mini alongside the current BMW Mini will highlight my point. Even a large family saloon of the sixties such as the Ford Zodiac or Vauhall Cresta would now not look so large when parked alongside a Ford Focus of Toyota Avensis.
The family car is, in most case, the second most expensive item we purchase, after the family home. I can only agree with earlier responses to "vote with your tyres". Those Clients who commission car parks and those designers who design car parks need to be encouraged to increase bay sizes to accomodate the average modern car. Few people now drive the Classic models the 2.4m x 4.8m bays were originally established for.
Hats off to the like of Waitrose who have the forward thinking to address this problem in their car park design.
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Tony Page
Member - 13 posts
Tim, I totally agree. Landlords also have to take responsibility, they to often ask a designer to squeeze as many spaces as possible (within the guidelines of course) in order to maximise the potential income from motorists. And as you quite rightly point out, there appears to be no consideration for the larger cars of today.
However, I would also have to ask as to how wider spaces could be acheived, without losing a great deal of many spaces if the land is not available or the car park has been established for many years. New bulids, particularly supermarkets generally have the land to afford such oppotunities, Tesco's in Warrington is a prime example.
Personally, I would like to see the car park that I manage re-configured to allow wider spaces. This of course would mean losing spaces but in reality the car park is rarely full anyway, except for weekends and in particular Christmas.
Tim it's a shame that your prudent advice falls on deaf ears because of either some red tape or as you put it ' stroke of an accoutants pen'
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Tim Blanchard
Member - 7 posts
Thanks Tony, The basic problem is the published guidelines quote minimum bay sizes, but these are generally accepted as "what they have to be".
Maybe some bright politician will introduce the "peoples car" of uniform size, the Fiat 500 with a length of 3.55m and a width of 1.63m may just fit the requirements, and all the parking problems will disappear with the added bonus of shorter traffic queues. Oh blast it, I've just realised my idea is 60 years old :)
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sheena farenden
Member - 59 posts
Going back to an earlier comment stating the distance Disabled people can walk.
To recieve DLA Mobility component you must not be able to walk approx 50 metres without pain.
It does not state I can walk 20 ft many of these people are in constant pain and walking any distance is agony. Does this mean that they should walk some ridiculous distance to get in a shop and then not be able to shop as they have reached their physical tolerance level.
I realise we all live in a totally selfish society but it is our own individual choice on how we react here. Put yourselves in these peoples shoes and count your blessings.
Mother and Child space I think should only be for any child as long as they are in a baby seat or using the trolley seat. Parents who allow their young children to run around out of control should not be allowed to use them. Size and age of child should not be the criteria but if the space is needed not just wanted.
Enough said
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Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts
Sheena you have a good point. I may be wrong but having lived in the USA for a while, I seem to remember there were Mother and "Baby" spaces available for quite some time before they found their way over here, they were just that - Mother and Baby spaces.
They were designed for mothers with babies in car seats and babies that sat in the special seats in the trolleys. I believe and I may be wrong that the children were up to a year old. The signs did say Mothers and Babies and I do believe that they came out of the fact that mothers used to carry their babies out of their cars in their car seats which were very heavy, into the shops and supermarkets. If anyone has ever tried carrying a six month old in one of those seats when they are asleep I can certainly understand why this would have been established.
Perhaps we need to go back to a more general understanding as to what these bays are for, however as already stated the sighting of these bays also has to be taken into consideration on a safety point of view. Mothers have to have eyes in the back of their heads when getting toddlers out of a car when they are also handling a baby and I do think car park owners have a duty of care to consider this when planning layout.
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