Means of escape: fire safety

Colin Sanders
Member - 4 posts

You need to carryout a fire risk assessment, is there automatic fire dtection in the stairway, what is the width of stairs and how much space is left if a stairlift is fitted. You need to look at the whole picture with regard to the means of escape from the upper floors. The Current fire safety law requires you to carry out a fire risk assessment of the common areas and this should be an indicator to weither a lift is suitable.

As a former fire safety inspecting officer for a fire service I can remember a number of request sfor advice about stair lifts and means of escape and each was traeted on its merits. I now do risk assessments and would not have a problem subject to a risk assessment, you would have to consider is a stay put policy in case of fire suitable?

les potter
Member - 23 posts

i fully agree with you colin, a fire risk assessment is definately needed in order to answer the question, it certainly cant be answered blindly on a general question as every premise is different.

Alan Cox - First for Fire & Safety
Online advisor - 53 posts

As Colin has stated you need to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment or update your existing policy. You have stated that you are not happy about this proposal for fire safety reasons - what are those reasons eg space, fire risk or evacuation. Why do you need to install a stairlift - do you have disabled residents or is this to allow disabled persons into the building?
At the end of the day you have to balance the fire risk with the needs of disabled persons and if you can show that you have considered the matter fully and have detailed written evidence to present to Social Servies as to why it is not possible then they should accept that. If however, you cannot show a valid reason then you have very little option but to installone if there is a genuine need.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

I fully agree with all the previous comments but would add that the type of chair, particularly the 'parking' of it, has a bearing on the acceptability or otherwise.

Richard Burrows
Member - 4 posts

Thanks for your comments - I was interested to hear about this precedent whereby an authority having carried out a fire assessment ( as I have), had to allow a stairlift on appeal from the tenant.

The requirement to undertake a fire assessment is accepted but this in itself presents a problem - the judgement on this is now wholly ours and not the fire authority's, they seem reluctant to pass comment on this issue.

Our policy is evacuate asap and all shelteterd flats within blocks are marked and known to the fire authority and their emergency reposnse crews.

In my ( the assessor's) opinion, the stairways are not sufficiently wide to accomodate this apparataus - the fire authority will not commit themselves to stating a minimum acceptble width and building control do not have a definitive view as the building is of an early 1970 s design and many of the new standards do not apply.

Without a definite standard on this, my judgement can be called into question and challenged.

In the event of fire, this equipment will not operate as power will be disconnected, it cannot therefore be taken as a means of evacuation.

We as an authority would not want to fall foul of disability discrimination legislation but equally if we granted permission for one of these lifts then we could be exposing ourselves to challenges from other applicants.

We are presently requesting all tenants to move motorised wheelchairs and buggies from the communal spaces in order to maintain clear exit routes and are meeting huge resistance.

Iain Sanderson
Member - 30 posts

Certainly reduction in width to an unacceptable level is one criteria for not accepting the stair lift. Saying that the building is of 1970's construction and the new standards do not apply is a bit of a red herring as the FRA should be carried out against the current standards as bechmarks. As you appear to be uncomfortable in making the decision and leaving yourself open to challenge, I would suggest you seek a third party opinion from an appropriate person as the Fire Authority, in my opinion rather strangely, unwilling to pass comment. The Fire Authority remain the enforcing authority of the current fire safety legislation and as such should either accept or reject the fire risk assessment.

Colin England
Member - 55 posts

1. Looking back at the first posting on this thread I see that mention is made of longterm leaseholders. These people must begiven an estimate of service charge cost and consulted on any work to the common parts of a building.

2. If (as inthis case) a proper fire risk assessment has been made then the leaseholders are entitled to have a copy of that.

3. Maybe the best way forward is to send a copy of your FRA to the fire authority and ask them to approve it.

4. If you have an architects department, then you could pass the whole matter over to them! They designed the building int he first place presumably.

5. I have never liked stair lifts because 1. tenants do not like them, 2. they do not work when there is a fire, 3. they are unreliable anyway, 4. they go obsolescent quickly - try getting aprts for them.

6. You indicate that infirm or disabled tenants are distributed throughout the building and that the Fire Authority has details of this. It would be best if all information which might be of use to firefighters in case of an emergency is put in a metal box outside the main front entrance door of the building. Ask the Fire Authiority about this - in writing of course.

David Partington
Member - 8 posts

I am the HS Manager with a large Housing authority and have over twenty sheltered unit sites. Recently we needed to have a lift upgraded and was quite comfortable about having a chair lift in situ as the stairs were over two metres wide and I therefore took the view that the tenants could escape at need. Not to have installed a chair lift would have left over thirty people as virtuel prisioners in their home over a two week period and this was clearly unaceptable to both the tenants and myself.

I note that you also work for a LA therefore can you not refer this matter to your own health and safety team as they will find a balanced resolution to this issue for you.