Fire Extinguishers

Anonymous

Shaun,
British Standards information (including the standards themselves) is online at http://bsonline.techindex.co.uk/. You can search the site by keyword or by entering in the code for specific standards you are looking for, but you only get the barest details.
You may know that BSI members can buy British Standards at a significant discount. You don't need to be a BSI member to carry out a fuller search on their site, but you will need to register (which is free).
The standard you would appear to be looking for is BS 5306-1:1976 Fire extinguishing installations and equipment on premises - hydrant systems, hose reels and foam inlets, though this has been partially replaced. It costs £34 for BSI members, £68 for non members.

Phil West
Member - 2 posts

Could you please advise me how often a fire extinguisher should be checked by a competent person? The company that I deal with at present is stating that they should be checked every six months. I believe this to be an overkill and was looking at extending the time from 12 months to 18 months and maybe then to 24 months as there have been no problems identified at inspection. When an extinguisher has been discharged accidentally, it is replaced immediately and the used one brought back into service at the earliest opportunity. Many thanks.

Tina Renshaw
Member - 3 posts

British Standard BS5306 Part 3 2000, recommends that all portable fire extinguishers are subjected to an annual maintenance inspection and service, by a competenent person. It also recommends a monthly and six-monthly visual inspection that can be done locally on-site by a non-competent person. The qualification for compency in this instance is that the person (engineer) shall have attained a prescribed certificate of cempetency following a recognised training course run by an accredited British fire extinguisher training establishment, under a quality assurance critera. The certificate is awarded under the title of QAS 3169 part 3 and 4. On the annual service visit each extinguisher is stripped down and the contents empied into a bucket for re-use or disposal, depending upon condition. The exterior/interior of the extinguisher is checked for signs of corrosion and interior for signs of split/lifted linings, the CO2 cartridge is weighed and discharge hose and valve assembly checked for correctness of actions etc. The whole lot reassembled using new washers and seals where required, and the label signed off stating the date of that service visit.

This action varies slightly depending upon type but applies generally to all gas cartridge and stored pressure type extinguishers. However it does not apply to CO2 extinguishhers, which are sealed under high pressure. These are weighed accurately against their known full weight critera, which is stamped upon the neckband.



Once every five years each extinguisher (except CO2) is subjected to a discharge test, wherein the contents are expelled under the normal operating pressure and technique of the extinguisher, and then refilled as per a service visit.



When an extinguishjer has been discharged it has to be refilled or replaced as soon as possible, (bearing it mind that its purpose cannot be fulfilled while it is empty). Most larger type premises carry a small stock of spares so as to be able to replace the odd one or two during the year if necessary, thereby avoiding the costly call-out charge for an engineer to come on site to refill one extinguisher outside the normal annual service visit.

Note: You cannot use the part contents of any extinguisher once it has been parly discharged.



Health & Safety Division

Casella Winton

www.casellawinton.co.uk

020 8296 5785

Ian Kerchell
Member - 2 posts

Is it illegal to tamper with or misuse a fire extinguisher(e.g. let a fire extinguisher off as a joke).

Anonymous

It is an offense to misuse an extinguisher under the Health & Safety at Work Act with criminal prosecution being a sanction.

Extinguishers must be serviced annually - 6 months is overzealous unless in an industrial environment of such a nature that the extinguishers are more prone to damage or deterioration

Anonymous

What are your views on the provision of fire extinguishers in company cars?

Yannos Orphanos
Member - 2 posts

Tina,
In your explanation of the annual inspection required, you state that these do not apply to CO2 portable extinguishers.
What exactly applies to this type of extinguishers?
Also, do the CO2 extinguishers have to be fitted with pressure gauge or not?

Derek Chandler
Member - 12 posts

Fire extinguishers in cars - tempting fate. Fire usually too much for small units to cope with - far more economic human wise to keep driver away from danger...hopefully if they are able.

Richard Adamek
Member - 6 posts

Regarding British Standards Access, it should be possible to view these on line at a subscribing library, in Norfolk, all libraries now have internet access and a terminal can be booked and logged in by the staff so that you can see the entirety of a standard rather than just the precis which is enabled for non subscribers on line, priceless, as this lets you see if the content is releavent enough to purchase the standard rather than playing the lottery !

Andy Sykes
Member - 5 posts

Does the 5 yr discharge apply to foam and powder? if so can this be done on site or do new extinguishers need to be purchased? Thanks

Craig Rowland
Member - 4 posts

With regard to Co2 extinguishers; they are required to have a hydraulic test every 10 years, under the standards already mentioned.

chris chris
Member - 5 posts

that it a hydro test it is done with water and pressure

jassim almaraghi
Member - 1 post

i would like to buy a dry powder fire extinguisher and used in highly corrosive & humid location.
how can i choose the suitable fire extinguisher that withstand this environment

les potter
Member - 23 posts

Tina wrote' Once every five years each extinguisher (except CO2) is subjected to a discharge test, wherein the contents are expelled under the normal operating pressure and technique of the extinguisher, and then refilled as per a service visit.'

whilst this is partially correct, it does not apply to primary sealed portable appliances, they are only discharge tested on a 10 yearly basis too. Currently the only company to supply primary sealed cartridge extinguishers is Nu-Swift

les potter
Member - 23 posts

Jasim wrote'i would like to buy a dry powder fire extinguisher and used in highly corrosive & humid location.
how can i choose the suitable fire extinguisher that withstand this environment'

the application and location of all portable appliance should ideally be located by a proffessional person. the best advice i could give would be to locate the correct fire extinguisher that is consummate to the risk, via the risk assessment process. in that way you will have the correct size and type of extinguisher,reccomended by a proffessionally compitent person.

As to the dry powder part of your comment.
while dry powder is designed to extinguish classes A B C and electrical fires. it also reduces visibility thus hindering escape, it can cause severe breathing difficulties when inhaled, and due to the content of ammonium phosphate, can burn the lungs and stomach if digested.

Hanna Rees-Jones
Member - 1 post

I am trying to find out if there is a legal minimum requirement for the number of fire extinguishers required for the number of people employed / present in a wokplace.

We seem to have an awful lot and this is obviously a good thing but I want to make sure that should any need replacing or be faulty we do not fall under the legal requirement.

les potter
Member - 23 posts

the calculation as guided in BS 5306 is to take the area and x 0.065 therefore as an example 400 sq metres x 0.065 = 26 this is the minimum A rating required for this area, additional equipment is then added to make it consumnate to the risk ie Carbon doixide for electrical cover and a fire blanket in a kitchen for example.

if you employ 5 or more you must have by law have a fire risk assessment in place and the person who carries out the assessment should be able to tell you if you have to many and/or if they are located correctly.

the rire risk assessment is required under the regulatory reform ( fire safety ) order 2005

Holly James
Member - 4 posts

Hello Members,

Thought I'd let you know we have a brand new course running in March 2008 called the Fire Risk Management Workshop. It is a one day course being held at the MI Conference Centre in London.

If you would like any further information, please call me on 01223 431 072.

Thanks,
Holly

Bob Brown
Member - 2 posts

Hi just read all of the posts - I have a small business with 2/3 staff! - we have been shafted by a fire engineeer annually - discharging all (10) extinguishers each time he calls - please! - what is the legal situation - do I have to have the extinguishers checked each year -what if I dont?

Mike Kane
Member - 11 posts

The previous comments regarding premises area / extinguisher provision is technically correct, but slightly misleading. The "A" rating calculates out at "26" in respect of a 400 sq. metre area, however be clear that this does not mean 26 fire extinguishers!!

The "A" rating indicates the extinguishing power required to deal with a small carbonasceous (Type A) fire in its incipient stages. As a general rule of thumb, 1 water based extinguisher per 200 square metres is the norm and there should be a minimum of 2 units provided in any workplace, except where the floor area does not exceed 100 square metres.

Water based fire extinguishers, 9 litres capacity or a smaller size with additives, are rated at "13A". It therefore follows that in any workplace 2 of these units would be required, and additional units for every 200 square metres.

In respect of other types of fire, there are Foam, Carbon Dioxide and Powder type extinguishers available. These have "B" and "F" fire ratings. A fire risk assessment should identify where these other types are required.

In general, the provision of 1 x Water based and 1 CO2 type (2 Kilogram size) fire extinguishers are often the best combination to adequately form a fire fighting point within most workplaces containing no special risks.

Extinguisher points should be located adjacent to the exits from the workplace and no person should have to travel more than 30 metres in any direction to reach an extinguisher.

Maintenance is simple. Weekly visual checks by the users to identify any damage or tampering, and an annual test and examination by a qualified engineer.

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Bob Brown
Member - 2 posts

Is the annual test a legal requirement if you only have 2 staff?

Mike Kane
Member - 11 posts

Yes, it is a requirement for any workplace.

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Iain Sanderson
Member - 28 posts

I agree with Mike the test is relevant to the equipment not people.

Mike Kane
Member - 11 posts

Just a thought for Bob Brown..........

If you have only 2 or 3 staff, why do you have so many fire extinguishers? Do you have a large premises?10 fire extinguishers seems to be a fairly large number and an annual discharge may not actually be required dependent upon the type of extinguisher installed. You might be being "shafted" to quote your post !

Mike Kane
fireuk@msn.com

Chris Johnson
Member - 5 posts

Good to see some sound advice getting out there.

We must remember that the 13A/200SQ M is for an empty building!

I found a warehouse, that was filled to the roof with spirits (not Ghosts!) and only had Water Fire Extinguishers. 6L AFFFoam units often give 21A (with some at 27A), also a B Fire Rating for flammable liquids (and liquefiable plastics). They also have a 35kv Test for use on Live Electrical Equipment. C02 Have a B Rating, but only knock down a fire, the gas floats away and the fire comes back. These now can have a 55B Rating (not 34B) in a 2kg unit, fitted with the new safety horns. Safer, Lighter and more effective.

After almost 36 years in Special Hazards Fire Protection and the last 25 years specializing in Portable Fire Extinguishers, I have never known any Fire Extinguisher in normal use that requires Test Discharge every year. You need to report these crooks to BAFT.

Charles Houston
Member - 5 posts

The trouble is that owners don't know how many; what type and how old their portable fire equipment is. It's not difficult to make a mini-file on each and every extinguisher, give it a number. Service contracts change over the life of an extinguisher and it's important that duty-holders can stand over their fire protection measures - especially in front of a judge.

Alan Cox
Member - 43 posts

This thread reminds me of an interesting incident that occurred a few weeks ago when I was out walking my dog in a local park - as I entered the park I saw a dry powder extinguisher that had been discharged and discarded in the field. Thinking that it looked like it may have come from a local petrol station and convenience store I walked past it and noted that a dry powder extinguisher was missing from the mobile rack - as the store was very busy I decided to email the Customer Service Dept who promptly replied that they had contacted the store and it did not belong to them.
This intrigued me so a few days later when I was in the park I made a closer inspection of the extinguisher and it had an asset number on it and a company logo so I rang the extinguisher servicing company and they confirmed that it did in fact belong to this petrol station/ convenience store. I again contacted the Customer Service Dept and they confirmed again that it did not belong to them - so I wrote to the Chief Executive and he rep[lied that he would ask his Executive Management Team to investigate - shortly after this the extinguisher disappeared and I had another email from the Customer Services Dept informing me that it was definately not their extinguisher and the reason that one was missing from the rack on the forecourt was because one was faulty and awaiting repair.
Clearly this company did not believe "that every little bit helps" - I still await an explanation from the Executive Management Team.

linda fagan
Member - 2 posts

i have a powder fire extingisher in a very small shop , it gets serviced yearly by realm (realmfire.co.uk), this time around they came when i was not here only a staff member and replaced it with a new one, they didnt leave my old one to prove it had been replaced and i did not authorise replacement, im guessing they replaced it as its 5 years old however it has never been used and was in very good condition. are they right to replace it or are they just trying to get extra cash from me, as i never authorised replacement so will need to pay or can i demand the old one back again? is it ok to have a 5 year old extingisher? or do you have to change it?

and help would be nice
many thanks

Alan Cox
Member - 43 posts

Linda,
There are a number of reasons that the company could have replaced your dry extinguisher but being 5 years old is not one of them.
Firstly, you need to look at the contract that you have with the company and see that there is nothing in the small print that allows them to exchange equipmemt without getting prior permission. Even if there is something in the contract - any reputable company should let you know the reason that they have replaced it eg corrosion, damage, non complient etc.
Secondly you don't say what type of extinguisher they have replaced it with - was it another dry powder or was it water - whilst dry powder is quite a good fire fighting medium it's not the first choice you would normally find in a shop. This may have been the reason they changed it if it's a different type, but what ever the reason, they should have asked you first and my advice would be to get them to bring the old one back and explain why they changed it and ascertain if they are charging you a fair price and make sure that it complies with current standards.
Hope this helps.

Alan

Phil Martin
Member - 2 posts

Linda,
The general rule is that extinguishers should have a “Basic” service every year and an “Extended” service every 5 years to comply with BS5306 Part 3. A Dry Powder would require an extended service which would include a test discharge. Test discharging and refilling a DP extinguisher is a messy and time consuming operation. There are also quality issues with some extinguishers. The simple solution offered by most extinguisher service organisations is to “Offer” a service exchange. They take your old extinguisher and leave you with a factory recondition one. This is to everyone’s advantage but the service company should make this clear at the time, obtain authority and recorded it on the service report. Your service company may have acted in good faith.
Phil

linda fagan
Member - 2 posts

hi alan, thanks for that info, the company says it was "due test" as it was 5 years old and the automatically replace them when they are "due test" , i told them that being 5 years old that is not a reason for replacement. they said the charge is £35+ vat to test it but as im on a street where powder extingisher cannot be tested, they need to take it away to test, so they charge £35 + vat for the brand new one instead of testing the old one, so i guess its fair enough.
thanks again

Nicholas Batten
Member - 15 posts

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 says that any facilities, equipment and devices provided under the order must be subject to a suitable system of maintenance and should be maintaned in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair. The guidance to the Order says that fire extinguishers "will require periodic inspection, maintenance and testing. Depending on local conditions such as the likelihood of vandalism or the environment where the extinguishers are located, carry out brief checks to ensure that they remain serviceable. In normal conditions a monthly check should be enough. Maintenance by a competent person should be carried out annually." British Standards are not "legal requirements" as such.

Charles Houston
Member - 5 posts

I was under the impression that EU regulations on fire extinguishers EN3 was introduced in 1996, requiring all units to be signal red in colour with coloured band signifying the type of extinguisher.
Black CO2 could remain in service until 2006 and blue dry powder could remain in service until 2016 before they had to be replaced.
Why does Lindas' service company test DP Exts on the street anyway? The discharge test can be carried out by discharging contents into a special bag to prevent atmospheric contamination.
After inspection of the valve assembly etc, etc, the original charge can be returned to the unit or, if 'dozed', a fresh charged. But Hi, Linda, if you're happy ...

M Tucker
Member - 4 posts

Just a small point that I would appreciate comments on. We have three small shops, have done the fire risk assessments as required and I can see no real need for any extinguishers. The shops are all under 500 sq ft each.

I have had any number of so called "experts" telling me what I "should" do and what is a "recommendation", but no-one will tell me what I HAVE to do. One even wanted me to pay him £900 and then berated me for not having "a fire warning system in place like the law says" (My comment that shouting out the word FIRE was a warning system really wound him up)

We have no naked flames, all electrics are tested, no smoking etc, etc etc.. I know an extinguisher would be nice, but where does it say I must have one.

Alan Cox
Member - 43 posts

An interesting point and one which has certainly been in the news a lot lately. The reality is that if you have done the risk assessment correctly and come to the conclusion that you don't need a fire extinguisher then you are complying with the law no matter what the experts tell you. The only people that can really tell you if you need fire extinguishers are the Fire Authority and if you have done the RA correctly they should agree with you. Your insurer may also have something to say on the matter if you have a fire and they think that a means of fighting the fire could have prevented further damage so you may want to just check with them. Even if you are told that you need a fire extinguisher I have met some very well informed persons in my career that have made a very good case for a bucket of water.
You are also right on the fire warning system and if you have a very simple premise then you may not need a fire alarm system and shouting would be acceptable.
That is the reality of the situation but please allow me to give you a word of advice - I have two fire extinguishers and a fire blanket in my home - why, because I know that in a fire situation they are more effective than a bucket of water and whilst I have the skills to use a bucket of water if I am not at home my wife could use them fairly effectively. For the cost of the equipment which is about £25 per extinguisher and £10 for the blanket I think that its a good investment to protect my home.
I hope that helps. Alan

M Tucker
Member - 4 posts

Thanks Alan - at last a word of sense.

Regarding the home, I have to admit that we do have both a bucket of water and a fire blanket as well as an extinguisher - but that is a choice I am happy to make as my family are far more important to me than a bit of stock. I do draw the line at being told what to do. My "risk assessment" at home is very different.