08BULLYING

Colin Welch
Member - 10 posts

I completely agree! There appears to be an element in Council's that consider themselves "above the law" and they can get away with anything. I joined a London Borough Council in 2000 having never worked in Local Government before and was completely taken aback by the amount of allegations of bullying and harrassment issues coming across my desk in the form of Stress assessments. Once my H&S section had investigated the stress issues we compiled a confidential report on each individual which highlighted the bullying issues. Nothing was ever done about any of them.

I myself was subject to bullying by an Executive Director for the last two years when I left in February this year. I had six months off work in 06/07 due to stress as a result and yet no-one ever listened to my complaints or did anything to stop this happening.

Councils need to be held to account - they are not above the law and this needs to be stopped in its tracks.

Richard Burrows
Member - 4 posts

Its ironic that local authorities make so much of their policies and procedures but dont actually adhere to any of them untill they want rid of someone. I had the worst job experience ever for the last two years - clear sex discrimination, bullying and exploitation and when I confronted HR with the evidence, they consulted the senior managers involved and decided that they "couldnt" help.

I was told the mechanism for dealing with formal complaints of this nature was for it to be referred to the head of service - this was the person reposnsible for the problem! From there it may be referred to directors board - made up 5 people two of which are directly reposnsible for the problem.

Your reposndent is quite right in saying that there is no mechanism whereby complaints can be addressed independenetly and objectively. The problem is that councils know this - and boy do they play on it!

They offered me counselling to deal with it! Its a joke!

Nigel DuPree
Member - 123 posts

So called 'jokes' like so called harmless 'banter' or teasing are dangerous too and should be included in the range of bullying experienced my many.

My associated worked for a local council who refused to do anything about the constant targetted 'practical jokes'.

The regular wet seat or the smelly cheese tapped to underside of desk or draws full of packing material or the bubble wrapped and celiotaped display screen or mis-posting of mail followed by complaint that issues arising have not been dealt with or the irational temper tantrums followed by 'not really' or the regualr CC 'ing of e-mails to half a dozen people in different departments who all then need responding to and so on and so on.

It's ok though because the victim will leave and they won't have to deal with the bully who is bound to consume lots of time if have to pay for "diversity training" or retraining and will take legal action is dismissed for misconduct.

Simple cost/benefit calculation so long as you discount loss of performance or productivity from the bullies peers and those under them in constant fear of where the next 'joke' or 'hissy fit' is coming from.

Hopefully Corporate Manslaughter will, in due course, bring about a change in toxic workplace cultures and many more people will experience the benefits of "Positive Regard for all" instead of the debilitating affects of "approval deprivation" as a common tool to make inadiquate management feel better about themselves.

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Bullying has been brushed under the carpet for far to long. No one is above the law councils need to be held accountable for the actions of their staff. I suggest people should write/ email there local Member of Parliament and ask them to support a change in legislation.

linda Hartley
Member - 3 posts

i have to admit I had been a senior manager in Local Authority and did not realise just what kind of bullying went on until I took voluntary redundancy and now work as a clerical assistant in a small school. The Head Teacher is the worst manager I have ever encountered in my life and she is an outright bully to the extent that she lies, we have proof of this , and yet becuase th teachers know that the authoiry closes ranks around Head Teachers noone will stand up and do anything. I was the only one telling her and now she has started on me. I feel utterly helpless because I know only too well how 'senior' managers behave when they dont want to do anything about it. Indeed I can tell you all now that they do acutally lie even to the extent of telling Council members a lie to achieve what they want. As you said all these proceudrues mean nothing! and in my ase the Union rep is useless as he happens to be a teacher and so doent want to 'rock the boat'..what chance have the workers got . Whats actually moved on in terms of labour relations/treatment of staff in the last forty years that I can see is zilch!

David Wooldridge
Member - 13 posts

Let me tell you that 'Bullying', whether at work, or school, or whatever stage you happen to be at, will NEVER be eliminated!
It also covers all classes & creeds--Take a look at history itself!

Anne McAllister
Member - 118 posts

It will never be eliminated until targets (not victims) recieve the support they need.
Brushing things under the carpet is still the norm in most places but sooner or later there will be a big ET payout and then,perhaps, those responsible for allowing it to continue will take notice.
Suicide is the worse case scenario and we should all be ashamed of permitting even one loss of life due to bullying.
Vi...I have signed your petition. Good luck.

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Thanks Anne. Bullying will be eradicated when people learn to say no and make a stance. With regards to Linda I suggest you keep a diary and write everything down, dates and times. Unions are rubbish, trust your instincts if you think it wrong then it is.

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Thanks to everyone who has signed the petition.

linda Hartley
Member - 3 posts

Hi Vicky I have signed your petition.
Believe me I am keeping a diary of every conversation, everything I am asked to do or not do, date time and my responses. Whether it will help or not we'll see but at least I have a record of everything should I need it.

I agree with other posts about bullying...it isnt realsitic for us to expect it to be eliminated. Yet we have to try and reduce the instance of occurrence and try to do something about it whatever way we can. The hardest part is for us to stand up for ourselves especially when we are not empowered to do so and do not have the support of those who should always listen to both sides.
My husband relies on Karma!! I keep asking him when is it coming her way... :)

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Hi Linda

Thanks for signing the petition. I think you might find this website helpful.

http://www.mygrievance.co.uk/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,67/func,listcat/

Vicky

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

The unions cherry pick cases. Wants it reaches tribunal stage I have found the Unions do not want to know. I think a lot of people will find this interesting http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87102

Colin Welch
Member - 10 posts

I have been watching these posts with interest and agree that Unions are not all they are cracked up to be! I "was" a member of one very large Union whilst in Local Government and put my trust in them to help me. Only to be let down when the need arose for them to defend my position.

My personal view is that Local Government is riddled with varying degrees of corruption. A very serious and swathing statement I know but from personal experience I became aware of many instances where senior members and exec directors / heads of service were allowed to do whatever they wished with no fear of being held to account. And to top it all, I found that the branch officer for the Union was in a relationship with a Head of Service - how can that be permitted??

I am very saddened and disheartened by my experience in Local Government and ask, "just what state is our Country in when our so called leaders are allowed to run like this?"

linda Hartley
Member - 3 posts

Colin,
Having worked in Local Authority for over thirty years I have to agree with you. A very sad state of affairs as this is one place where you would expect to have most if not completely everything above board.
Thanks Vicky for that link ow! where do these sites hide themselves. Very helpful, it helps wehn you dont feel so alone!
What I can say is that , I think, with my influence?, two members of staff who were very quiet and accepted whatever treatment etc they were doled out have now started to speak up for themselves. Its a shame the teachers dont. Having worked in various 'departments' of LA, it seems the culture in Education is very antiquated and revolves around the Head Teacher as 'boss', and I mean a culture that seems to project the HT's as all knowing.
Even when I started work 40 years ago I dont ever recall having worked in a culture that operates quite like Education. I guess this doesnt help in staff relations it certainly doesnt work in motivational terms!

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Colin

One of your first posts has been edited. Was there no reports about the chap who committed suicide? The family could of always sued the local authority.

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

I am afraid Bullying and Harassment is everywhere no matter what the company. They will set up their policies, have "safe" reporting lines and make lots of noise about taking it all very seriously. However when presented with the evidence most cases end up with the employee still being retained (possibly in a different position) to carry on their little cliques and just go on repeating the problem in the stronger knowledge that they cant be caught. The victim on the other hand is so traumatized that they can no longer continue to stay - so the wrong person ends up having to leave the company.

I asked a senior manager why an employee had not been sacked following a lengthy disciplinary, where the employee involved had quickly secured the services of the union despite belittling all those around that were members of one previously to being accused and was told " we simply did not have the evidence!" It was more the case that they did not want to risk a claim for unfair dismissal given that the victim had already had a nervous breakdown and left the company.

I cannot see how any of the anti bullying policies that companies adopt can ever properly work whilst they are targeting systematic "criminals" (because they are) who have probably been doing it from a very early age and have become extremely good at it and more importantly hiding it. It will take at least a generation or two of education before this culture is tackled from a very early age, starting in the home and school environment.

One final point - Whilst I cannot comment on individual union experiences, I can say that having worked with (not for) one of the largest unions for over ten years I have found them always to be incredibly helpful, supportive and knowledgeable - when the time comes to make harsh decisions they have not looked the other way and that’s more than can be said for some - and I hasten to add some managers.

Anonymous
Member - 28 posts

I'm about to sign the petition. See the fury as shop tells staff to hid fat tums in opinion.

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

I am really sorry to hear about your experience. Thank you for signing the petition.

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

Signed your Petition and sent to all in address book to do the same. Good Luck

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Thanks a lot Carol.

Helen C
Member - 15 posts

The Hierarchy in the workplace today has a lot to answer for. I worked for a Company where the HR Manager had Family members working for the same Company and other staff sucked up to them constantly...afraid of losing their jobs and had mouths to feed. I think this is why a lot of people who could speak up, dont, because of the consequences if they do and who is going to pay their mortage for them when they are ousted out for standing up to a bully, who is part of the Hierarchy themselves?! The last time I stood up to a bully and for someone else who was being bullied, I was ostracised by a majority of the "Family Firm" and I left because it made me so ill. The crunch came when I could not get a reference from them, which spoke volumes at interviews when I had no references...who is the interviewee going to believe when they are told that my old firm will not release a reference,and they do not have to give a reason why? I do not regret what I did because I refuse to sit back and witness abuse in front of me. One last footnote: The "victim" I stood up for, is still there and NO! He is not paying my mortage for me lol!

Helen C
Member - 15 posts

thank you for your post...I will look up the site after I have posted. Actually when I could not get a reference of my last firm I went it alone and formed a Limited Company. I now have a Business of my own and we do not tolerate bullying or discrimination of any sort. As an Employer, I have my rights too and am not afraid of speaking up and getting things out in the open if I see any form of bad behaviour occuring and I am aware that there are two sides to every story . I am fortunate because I have been on both sides of the coin, so to speak and it has given me valuable knowledge to understand the bully as well as the victim. A bully is usually a very insecure person who needs to make them self feel better by bullying others...thank you

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Helen

I am really pleased everything eventually worked out for you.

A. Warden
Member - 6 posts

Richard Burrows post (and too many others) sounded like I'd written it myself! I stood up for myself and out on a limb about 18 months ago and, though I ultimately got another (better) job, within the same department I now find that I am being "stonewalled" for any sort of training I apply for and despite all the excuses I know that the "obstructive manner" of these managers in local government will never change nor be appropriately challenged. Their "strength" is in their numbers and the way they actively protect one another (close ranks). Corruption at its best and all the policies and procedures aren't worth the paper they're written on. Their "weakness" is their own personal shortfalls and inadequacies which has led them to collectively bully & intimidate those stronger than themselves, those who are not afraid to speak up & who have a personal strength without the need for the pack mentality the bullies so need.

A. Warden
Member - 6 posts

see also - http://www.workplacelaw.net/news/display/id/13622

Colin Welch
Member - 10 posts

I totally agree with all you say - but what can be done about this unacceptable situation?

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Write to your Member of Parliament and ask them to support a change in legislation.

http://www.writetothem.com/?keyword=mp&creativeid=605235279&gclid=CPrvi6u8_ZICFQs1QwodmzccDw

Daniel Sweeney
Member - 9 posts

Its a funny old world when an organisation can get away with creating a 'dignity in the workplace' policy that draws a difference between Bullying and harassment . The difference apparently being that harassment is linked to a statutorily protected discrimination ground, whereas bullying is not. Unfortunately the outworking of this is that complaining of harassment gets an organisation all hot and bothered as it thinks, IT1 (or in Northern Ireland FET1 on occasions), whereas bullying is seen as naughty children in the playground. Its time that this semantic fiction was dropped and the 96 ERA incorporated a proper harassment definition that would encompass bullying. On a cheerier note hitting an employer with a personal injury claim through a no win no fee shark may start to get their attention! Duty of care for employees and all .
I cant help but wonder why anyone would think of local authorities as being models of good practice. Perhaps I'm prejudiced but having worked in local Govt in NI in relation to Policing, the whole lot would benefit from a good forensic audit by the SFO or its successor.

John Maltby
Member - 7 posts

What a bunch of wingers and whiners, if you are all a token representation of LA employees then I'm not suprised that this country is in the mess its in.

Listen, if you have been subject to negative comments then instead of jumping on your high horse demanding your rights, and quoting the employers responsbilities, take a moment to review what has been said and if your 'honest' with yourself you will most probably realise that yes, you could have done things differently and work to sort it out, if you still feel concerned ask to speak to the other party informally and try to understand why they have reached the opinion they have then work TOGETHER to resolve issues.

A. Warden
Member - 6 posts

John, CLEARLY you've never found yourself subjected to the type of nasty behaviour that others here have. CONGRATULATIONS!

However, it is very narrow minded of you to assume that there has been little or even no attempt to "sort it out" by any of these contributors. When you are dealing with bullies at management level, it (appears) inevitable that they will close ranks to "protect" the organisation & themselves and you simply can't fix something when one half won't admit it's broken!

I consider myself a bright, capable individual who contributes significantly to my workplace and am committed to my role. I am neither a troublemaker NOR a yes (wo)man - however I have the ability to speak my mind. I sincerely hope that you never have the misfortune of experiencing "bullying" in the workplace and that you happily remain on the pedestal from which you judge.

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

Frankly John you are a prime example of just why we have a bullying problem in the workforce and why employers NEVER take it seriously or pay lip service to the thousands of pounds their companies spend setting up diversity programmes in the first place. You obviously don’t come from a company who either has one of those programmes or have been trained on one of them and if you have I strongly suggest you go back and get your monies worth!

This has nothing to do with LA employers specifically its affecting every employer and usually the bigger the company the more prevalant it is. There is a lot more to bullying than just a few "negative" comments and your suggestions for dealing with even those just show how naive you are over the issue. I expect you would be a parent who would advise his kid to stand up to a bully by hitting back! Perhaps you need to educate yourself by spending time with someone who has been traumatized by incessant bullying over a prolonged period and then perhaps you would come back and post something worth reading.

Colin Welch
Member - 10 posts

"What a bunch of wingers and whiners"

EXACTLY what the individual said of my colleague who suffered at his bullying hands. Yes, I DO DEMAND my rights Mr Maltby and who are you to ever say that I have no rights to do so? Or are you of the opinion that Managers and similar hierarchy are more "important" people than me with more rights??

Bruce McQuillan
Member - 9 posts

I have to say i am not sure Mr Maltby's comments on this issue are either appropriate or welcome on this board IMHO.

Craig Stuart
Member - 70 posts

I accept some of the criticism about trade unions, but I would stress that for those people working in non-unionised companies, bullying and harassment is a daily menace. Only by organising collectively can employees have any chance of fighting back. I agree that sometimes unions get it wrong (we are not perfect) but there are many more cases where we have got it absolutely right with testimonies from people who highly praise the service they received.

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

Mr Maltby you have obviously not experienced bullying your comments are offensive, each persons case is individual and no one has gone into any detail, you have automatically jumped to a conclusion without having any facts.

John Maltby
Member - 7 posts

How interesting, in responding to my comments in the way you have the 'bullied' have now become the 'Bullies'!! I hope you all take a moment to reflect on this.

Vi Gray
Member - 17 posts

No one has bullied you Mr Maltby they have merely responded to your comments. As I have previously stated it is apparent you have never experienced bullying.

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

How novel! Now the bully accuses the victim when he THINKS he’s getting a taste of his own medicine. Strikes me it’s more a case of a guilty conscience!

I suggested you come back when there was something worth reading!

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

oh!.... and I forgot to add there is an old and very wise saying, "When you are in a hole, stop digging!"

John Robertson
Member - 9 posts

Like Carole Simmons, I have given up any idea of ever being an employee again after seeing people do things - harassment - that would be illegal in the street but which judges simply chuck-out when applied to work (if I've understood the law right)....
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2007/1492.html
....just as they don't enforce psychiatric injury claims in practice.

I think part of the problem is that many of us just get the sack if we work for, say, Alan Sugar - making John Maltby's comment of 13 May is more or less true. But in some companies and most state-funded organisations, sacking is slower and nastier and part of a constant Machiavellian rat race of false allegations, rudeness, trying to make someone's job impossible in order to blame them etc etc.

The difficulty is when management are asked to keep-up a set of appearances, for example to get a grant, and spend all their time Machiavellying instead of managing. Public sector managers may do little else but play power games while their subordinates have to do a real job for the taxpayer and their pupils / clients / patients as well as putting-up with the management.

The My Grievance site looks like one part of the solution.

I don't think that putting-up with a bad union is part of the solution.
The accounts of the T&G at the Certification Office show something under £10 per member per year spent on a 2,000th part of a member of staff for each member out of a £10-£15 subscription each month. The rest goes into a black hole. The union claims to have a legal budget of £5-£6 per member per year for personal injury and 66p per member per year for employment law, but even that appalling under-funding looks like a lie. The ratio suggests they're using no-win no-fee lawyers and may even be paid by the lawyers to make referrals.

So I think Craig Stewart's good reports must logically be rare exceptions. There is no way Unite-T&G can help 750,000 working members with 400 staff and a no-win no-fee lawyer referral scam.

I hope that employers and HR workers can sometimes try to tweak a recognition agreement to insist that the recognised part of the union publishes staff/member ratios, convincing accounts, evidence that they can consult all members often by post or email, and that nearly all subscriptions paid by people covered by the recognition agreement are accounted for online. It may seem odd to ask so much, but it looks from Vi Gray's link as though an employer has done a deal with a union to let down members; why not do a deal forcing a trade union to do its job?

John Maltby
Member - 7 posts

Carol, Bullying is not just a physical event, In your response to my 'generalised comments you accused me of being a prime example (and therefore as I interpret, the cause) of the bullying in the workforce. You made aspertions of my employer and working standards you also made comments of a personal nature and in particular on my parenting skills, you went on to blame the 'employer for never taking bullying seriously and every 'employer' as being responsible (for it).

Have you noticed the pattern, 'its always someone else's fault. In reality Carol 'you are a bully', recognise it and deal with it then move on. Life is too short.

In response to your last comment, the numerous people who must have advised you were correct. I assume you are now going to hang up your shovel!!

Kelly Mansfield - Workplace Law Network
Online advisor - 61 posts

Hi all,

This is clearly a very emotive issue and it seems that some contributors have been through some unpleasant experiences.

However, I do need to point out that the Workplace Law Network forum isn't the place for personal queries, personal insults or, indeed, anything that other contributors might perceive as bullying.

Workplace Law avoids editing or removing comments made by members on the forum - it's designed to enable members to communicate freely with one another and we actively encourage debate. But please remember that this is an avenue for workplace managers to seek professional advice and share views with their peers; not for personal arguments.

Thanks for your cooperation.

David Wooldridge
Member - 13 posts

Kelly
It is absolutely right at this stage for Wokplace Law Network to point out that this 'Forum' is not specifically for 'personal arguments', but has also illustrated that the issue of 'Bullying in the Workplace' is still very much alive & kicking. & personal views are diverse.
As individuals in whatever workplace or occupation we find ourselves in, I believe we all have to do everything that we can to put things right wherever possible & take action in conjunction with our individual conscience.
Thanks to all--this has been a very interesting topic to follow since first raised!

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

Kelly I absolutely agree with your comments especially on what you say about managers seeking advice and sharing views from their peers.

Actually I think the last few posts have been good examples of just that but they have also shown up exactly that managers can also be at the heart of some of the workplace problems, especially some who don’t listen, assume too much and read far too much into what is right in front of them, in short perhaps these people are probably not best on here.

Secondly when I am attacked personally by an ignorant person who seems to know nothing personally about a subject matter I believe I am entitled to respond.

Mr Maltby if you read what I said CAREFULLY instead of jumping to conclusions I think you will find that is not what I said however if the cap fits wear it! I also think that perhaps you need to read some of the other posts that were pointed in your direction because they all were repeating much the same sentiment.

Life is certainly much too short for the people suffering and being made intolerable at the hands of managers or other employers who will not address adequately their concerns when they are being relentlessly bullied. What’s your remedy in those situations because it’s not quite as simple as having a nice little chat, sort it out and move on – if it was you would not have had the reaction you did on here for a start. Why do you think people commit suicide? Go and sit in on help lines and listen to some of the stories and then perhaps your view point will change. I know if I told you about just one case I dealt with it would change our attitude for good.

And yes thank you I know that the numerous people that have advised me are correct just as is the advice I give them on this and other subjects like bullying. Perhaps its time you took some advice from somebody.

Bruce McQuillan
Member - 9 posts

I think apart from the inflamatory comments from one individual here two things are apparent from the thread. The scale of the problem and the drastic effect this problem can have on the individual lives of the targets....

Months off work, effects on the health and welfare of the family and the individual, effects on the welfare of other employees who are too terrified to speak up, breakdowns, suicides.... the list is as endless as it is unacceptable.

A 2005 editorial in the British Medical Journal noted that stress-related mental health problems had for the first time topped physical ailments as the chief cause of long-term sickness benefits claims in Britain.

http://www.hazards.org/suicide/cryingshame.htm gives details of work and bullying related suicides ranging from 18 year old girls to family GPs. If these people had been killed as a result of a football stand crashing to the ground anyone who made inflamatory comments such as Mr Maltby would be justifiably pillaried and ostracised and yet these people's lives are worth nothing in comparison ?

Standing up against bullying is not bullying the bully, it takes courage to raise your head above the parapet in defense of what is right and merely weakness and ignorance to do so to stand up for what is so clearly wrong...

Martin Stock
Member - 14 posts

Here, here! I've signed the petition, has everybody else?

Mark Tucker
Member - 1 post

I don't know John Maltby and have no axe to grind with him. Some of his comments may have been a little generalistic and in some parts controversial.

However that doesn't give other correspondents the right to respond in the way that they have. By any definition some of the comments certainly have been personal, insulting and designed to undermine or denigrate the recipient - in other words bullying.

Remember, bullying occurs when the recipient perceives that it has. John Maltby has already indicated that this is the case, and despite the intervention of an Online Advisor still the comments persist.

I am in no way defending Mr Matlby's comments and please don't also accuse me of being in denial regarding the problem of bullying in the workplace. I absolutely detest bullying, in the workplace or elsewhere and aim to not only prevent it but to support the victims of it. But please be aware that some of the recent coments could be construed as a form of bullying.

Just because someone feels strongly about a subject, they don't have the right to insult and intimidate others to make their point, nor should 'everyone else agrees with me' be a justification either. Is this a form of bullying?

You decide......

Colin Welch
Member - 10 posts

And you dont think his comments "What a bunch of wingers and whiners, if you are all a token representation of LA employees then I'm not suprised that this country is in the mess its in" are insulting or intimidating?

Kelly Mansfield quite rightly pointed out that this forum is not the place for personal queries or personal insults and I am not again going to be drawn into more debate on the issue. I think this thread has run its course and I believe there is a real issue in business today LA or otherwise which cannot and must not be ignored.

In my previous posts I did not wish to mention my own personal experience but as this has developed perhaps I now should (briefly).

In the Summer of 2006 I had a nervous breakdown at home in front of my wife, this following months of systematic bullying by an LA Executive Director. I was most unwell and entered a period of prolonged depression and all that goes with that.

My family also suffered miserably but in July 2007 I returned to work with "so called" control measures in place to prevent direct contact with the aggressor.
May I point out that at no time was this individual ever investigated for their behaviour towards me even when my counsellor clearly indicated that following interviews with my line manager they admitted that they knew this was happening!

In November 2007 I was suspended from work following "allegations" which I will not go into now, all of which, may I add, were completely without basis or factual evidence. In a nutshell, I had rocked the boat and this was my thanks!

Last Christmas was hell again for me and my family worrying constantly about security for them. Then, a job offer out of the blue so I resigned (just what they wanted!)

I now work for an organisation that respects people and are friendly and supportive of each other - I am very happy!

This has taught me one thing, to respect each other, to expect to be respected and to settle for nothing less! Sorry to prattle on!

Kelly Mansfield - Workplace Law Network
Online advisor - 61 posts

Hi again,

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread.

I think, however, that Colin is right when he says that this thread has run its course. Keeping in mind that, as I mentioned previously, this forum is intended for workplace managers to obtain professional advice and guidance from their peers, there comes a point where a discussion ceases be useful - and I think we've reached that point!

There have been some important issues raised in this discussion - thanks to all of you for highlighting those - but I'd like to suggest we draw a line under it here.

Thanks,
Kelly

John Robertson
Member - 9 posts

Kelly
What advice would you give to an employer recognising a bad union, that doesn't tackle workplace bullying?
John

David Wooldridge
Member - 13 posts

Dear Kelly
I respect the view & understand the need to sometimes stop a discussion if felt it is not useful to anyone to continue--however, there is plenty of evidence to suggest this issue will rear it's head again elsewhere, so why not carry on for another week!
As both an F.M professional, and one who has experienced many forms of bullying', especially in my working life, I confirm that it is an experience & suffering that I would not wish anyone to have to deal with, but I have also found encouragement & support, even after reading many of the contributions that have been made on this Forum on this particular topic.
Also, I believe there is much more help & understanding from Fellow Professionals now, but also a recognition of others that are unable to fight back or represent their case as appropriate.
Tackling Bullying should remain a high priority for anyone with a conscience, but also comes with a price tag & possible personal consequence for the individual trying to get justice & solution.

A. Warden
Member - 6 posts

Kelly

I think this "discussion" HAS been/IS informative professionally as well as personally and, whilst I appreciate that due to this topics highly involved/emotional nature it can at times be difficult for some to be wholly objective, it does nonetheless offer a good insight into the handling (or not) of this issue in the workplace from either perspective.

I agree with David that tackling bullying should be a high(er) priority and denying its profile in any forum will not make it go away. I'm also aware of experiences such as Colin's where unfounded & fabricated allegations often transpire in an attempt to counteract any bullying/harassment claims.

As Bruce said "standing up against bullying is not bullying the bully, it takes COURAGE to raise your head above the parapet in defense of what is right".

Though I understand this forum is for professional, rather than personal, comment - and I acknowledge that as a victim of mismanagement such as this it may sometimes be difficult NOT to cloud the two - it would be a pity to discontinue this thread simply because it makes for "uncomfortable" reading -to sweep it under the carpet is to suggest that this is not an issue to be acknowledged and dealt with "professionally".

Thank you all for your insightful contributions.

Kelly Mansfield - Workplace Law Network
Online advisor - 61 posts

Guys,

I don't deny the importance of the issue - far from it. Nor do I wish to sweep it under the carpet. If you, as professionals, have gleaned useful information from the thread then it's served its purpose.

My concern is for two main things:

1. That those members who rely on the service for guidance in their capacity as workplace managers continue to find the forum an effective and useful avenue.
2. That discussions do not turn into arguments through which members may perceive personal comments directed at them as bullying.

As I've said, we actually encourage debate and members' passion coupled with useful and professional guidance make this forum into the popular place it is today.

Carole Simmons
Member - 52 posts

Hi Kelly - I endorse what you say and your concerns, however as one of those that not only perceived personal comments directed against me as bullying but was actually called one, I think i am able to say that I am quite capable of dealing with it as i am sure most managers would be - I have experianced a lot worse!

Far more important that the discussion be allowed to continue if there is a need in order that the importance of the subject matter is not lost on those that need to hear a clear message. My heart goes out to people like Colin who found the courage to tell his story. In doing so he shows so vividly the affects of this awful subject and the reason why it is perhaps so important to keep this discussion going so clear guidance and advice can be sought to avoid his story being repeated in any workplace.

David Wooldridge
Member - 13 posts

By the continuance of comments & contributions to this forum on this particular discussion, I conclude that it is a wholly positive action. Hopefully all who participate, or even those who read various comments, will be better equipped & made aware how to deal with such problems if they do appear, & I'm sure they will.
I commend those who have been victims, and if later on they are put in a position of power & influence, it is my sincere hope that it will be used wisely, & to help the less fortunate in the workplace or other to be able to deal effectively with this problem.
I do not think it can ever be eradicated, but efforts & actions can be undertaken to reduce the risk, or the long-term effect of bullying, intimidation or whatever guise it takes.
For those persons out there--managers, Directors or others, if you are suffering any form of oppression or bullying, be encouraged to find someone to talk to on the matter, confidentially, even if it's an On-line Advisor!
At the risk of repeating myself , I have found comments from others during this ongoing discussion & debate to have been useful & positive--Thank You.